I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the weekend, and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

Here's why: I had a monthly subscription set up through them, but I forgot which email account I signed up with (my bad but there's more) so I tried to get them to help me figure it out. What a big waste of time that was!

Their customer service is ridiculous. I tried the online chat, and they tell
me I have to call. So I call, then they tell me I have to use the online chat.

This crap went on from Friday until today. I called them a dozen times, tried the chat a dozen times, and they don't really give a shit.

One chat agent said "If you can't call us, then close your checking account."

I wanted to tell them "I've used telephones before.." but I decided to take their shitty advice and close my checking account instead.

So if you're someone who has multiple email accounts and can't keep them organized (like me) then PayPal subscriptions are a bad idea! Thinking "I can just call them if I need help" is a bad idea.

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On 30 Nov 20 13:39:18, Shitty said the following to All:

I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the weekend and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

I share your sentiments but I work for an American startup that pays via Paypal every month. I had no choice but to "play the game" and keep my account clean.

Atreyu

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (77:1/103)

I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the weekend,and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

Well that whole story was; shitty. I super hate when I get so many Apple subscriptions and don't keep track of all the $9.99 THINGS I have going on... and now they want to sell me some Apple 1 crap - and I'm the dummy who's like well... wait, will it save me money and give me more stuff; its all a HUSTLE.

PayPal included.



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|08.........

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Re: PayPal
By: Shitty to All on Mon Nov 30 2020 01:39 pm

I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the weekend, and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

Here's why: I had a monthly subscription set up through them, but I forgot which email account I signed up with (my bad but there's more) so I tried to get them to help me figure it out. What a big waste of time that was!

Their customer service is ridiculous. I tried the online chat, and they tell me I have to call. So I call, then they tell me I have to use the online cha

This crap went on from Friday until today. I called them a dozen times, trie the chat a dozen times, and they don't really give a shit.

One chat agent said "If you can't call us, then close your checking account.

I wanted to tell them "I've used telephones before.." but I decided to take their shitty advice and close my checking account instead.

So if you're someone who has multiple email accounts and can't keep them organized (like me) then PayPal subscriptions are a bad idea! Thinking "I ca just call them if I need help" is a bad idea.

Welcome to the club of PayPal haters.

I am on the other end of PayPal's business. I use it mostly as a merchant.

Long story short:

* They forbid you to tell other people how bad they are.
* If there is a dispute they are going to side with the customer and freeze your transactions until you can prove the customer is cheating.
* Their fees are abusive, period, and they forbid you to charge them to the customers. SInce their fees are so bad but so much people demands PayPal anyway, I am breaking the ToS and charging the payment processor fees to the customers - I mean, if you want to use Paypal it is fine, but you are gonna pay for the privilege of working with these robbers. The fees are so bad that after implementing them people has been jumping to the credit card wagon.

Also they are political and will crash your account if you have a website that does not align well with their politics.

Linux News Media issued an internal message last month warning the personal that they are ditching Paypal because they have so much trouble with it and migrating all their internal payments to another solution.

So much fun. Screw these guys.
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On 12/5/2020 6:10 AM, between "Arelor" & Shitty to All on Mon Nov 30 2020 01:39 pm

I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the weekend,
and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

[snip]

Welcome to the club of PayPal haters.

I am on the other end of PayPal's business. I use it mostly as a merchant.

[snip]

I use it as a merchant too, but instead of building buttons for each product, I just invoice the buyer and they can pay me via paypal.me/ashliesbooks.

I have built paypal buttons for some various products at http://artsonfilm.com over 12 years ago, and that part has been working quite fine.
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Re: Re: PayPal
By: Ogg to Arelor on Fri Dec 11 2020 06:16 pm

On 12/5/2020 6:10 AM, between "Arelor" & Shitty to All on Mon Nov 30 2020 01 pm

I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the weekend,
and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

[snip]

Welcome to the club of PayPal haters.

I am on the other end of PayPal's business. I use it mostly as a merchant.

[snip]

I use it as a merchant too, but instead of building buttons for each product just invoice the buyer and they can pay me via paypal.me/ashliesbooks.

I have built paypal buttons for some various products at http://artsonfilm.c over 12 years ago, and that part has been working quite fine.

The first website I ever set used a PayPal button, but that was because La Espada Vengadora was the only item for sale.

Nowadays I use a module distributed by my CMS' developer. Buttons are convenient for single sales but in the long run people likes being able to load a lot of stuff into the shopping chart and buy it all at once from a single form.
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On 12/12/2020 4:28 AM, between "Arelor":

Nowadays I use a module distributed by my CMS' developer. Buttons are convenient for single sales but in the long run people likes being able to load
a lot of stuff into the shopping chart and buy it all at once from a single form.

I concur. It makes much more sense to have a basket that can be loaded with a variety of things. Your kind of inventory is attractive for multiple-item shopping.

I really have to update my now 10 yr old website (still operating with the definitive version of Wordpress that was available back then!) Then I would be able to use more modern plugins that support shopping baskets.

I am currently operating 7 days a week at my shop. At the end of the day, I pretty much want to do nothing related to my shop. But I may give myself Sundays and Mondays off during the worst part of winter in January to March - and then, I may be able to motivate myself to work on a newer version of my website.
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Re: Re: PayPal
By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Dec 13 2020 05:52 pm

I really have to update my now 10 yr old website (still operating with the definitive version of Wordpress that was available back then!) Then I would be able to use more modern plugins that support shopping baskets.

In my experience, old versions of Wordpress get compromised and turned into off-shore Viagra and Oxy shops in about 10 minutes. How do you avoid it running such an old version?

|01bobbobbobbob|09bob|03bob|11bob|03bob|09bob|01bobbobbob |01robrobrobrob|09rob|03rob|11rob|03rob|09rob|01robrobrob
|07




... Money isn't everything, usually it isn't even enough.
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On 12/13/2020 7:02 PM, between "Bob Roberts":

I really have to update my now 10 yr old website (still operating with the
definitive version of Wordpress that was available back then!)..

In my experience, old versions of Wordpress get compromised and
turned into off-shore Viagra and Oxy shops in about 10 minutes. How
do you avoid it running such an old version?

I learned that the compromise technique is called "php injections".

And yes.. my sites (I manage a few for a couple of charities and friends) have turned into those off-short drug sites a few times.

I have found out that there are specific things that I can look for when that happens. And it is relatively easy to remove the injected php code and recover.

When my complaints about php injections went to ISP Support, their solution was to disable all plugins and/or upgrade to a newer WP version. Support was not helpful at all.

The solution was to simply delete the injected code.

So, it is not a death knell when a site appears to get corrupted.

BTW.. I also learned that any directory could be a target for php injections. Even the following page was compromised at one point and it is just pure html!

http://kolico.ca/fidonet/easteregghunt/
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On 13 Dec 20 23:53:47, Ogg said the following to Bob Roberts:

When my complaints about php injections went to ISP Support, their solution was to disable all plugins and/or upgrade to a newer WP version. Support wa not helpful at all.

The solution was to simply delete the injected code.

Its not that simple when a company makes the unfortunate decision to use WP for their site, gets infected, and then all the Google/SEO rankings are all disabled or flagged. Trying to get Google to de-list an compromised site is
an absolute nightmare. Trying to explain the situation to a non-tech business owner is a bigger nightmare.

The other thing is that if one file is infected or compromised, how would one know that the rest of the hundreds-if-not-thousands of WP files are also not compromised. How does one know or trust that a plug-in, theme or widget code is not vulnerable.

I like the concept of WP but the execution in my opinion, has always been a bit shoddy and hacked-together.

Atreyu

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (77:1/103)

Re: old versions of Wordpress get compromised
By: Ogg to Bob Roberts on Sun Dec 13 2020 11:53 pm

I learned that the compromise technique is called "php injections".
I have found out that there are specific things that I can look for when that happens. And it is relatively easy to remove the injected php code and recover.
The solution was to simply delete the injected code.
So, it is not a death knell when a site appears to get corrupted.

I had it happen once, they installed a fancy .HTACCESS script that would redirect the connection to their store under certain cirumstances. Because it didn't happen every time it took me awhile to figure out what was going on. But now I know their trick!

|01bobbobbobbob|09bob|03bob|11bob|03bob|09bob|01bobbobbob |01robrobrobrob|09rob|03rob|11rob|03rob|09rob|01robrobrob
|07




... To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance.
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Re: Re: old versions of Wordpress get compro
By: Atreyu to Ogg on Mon Dec 14 2020 07:17 am

I like the concept of WP but the execution in my opinion, has always been a bit shoddy and hacked-together.

True. When the site I managed was compromised, the fancy "Security/Malware" scan provided by the hosting provider didn't even flag the issue. It's all A bunch of snakeoil.


|01bobbobbobbob|09bob|03bob|11bob|03bob|09bob|01bobbobbob |01robrobrobrob|09rob|03rob|11rob|03rob|09rob|01robrobrob |07


... Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the crap.
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
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On 14 Dec 20 07:26:44, Bob Roberts said the following to Atreyu:

I like the concept of WP but the execution in my opinion, has always b a bit shoddy and hacked-together.

True. When the site I managed was compromised, the fancy "Security/Malware scan provided by the hosting provider didn't even flag the issue. It's all bunch of snakeoil.

Tell me about it. Thing is, a properly designed website platform shouldn't *need* a scanner. Thats what kills me, its to be expected to have a scanner for a WP site, its totally normal.

Atreyu

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (77:1/103)

on 13 Dec 2020, Ogg said...

When my complaints about php injections went to ISP Support, their solution was to disable all plugins and/or upgrade to a newer WP
version. Support was not helpful at all.

The solution was to simply delete the injected code.

You realize they're talking about trying to remediate the vulnerabilities
that led to your site getting compromised, while you're talking about simply recovering your site, right? Unless you're running a giant ecommerce site or something, remediation is typically a high priority, and as far as recovery goes, most would recommend wiping it and starting over since you don't know what else they might have done.

One company I worked for was running a server (not Wordpress, though I can't remember what it was at this point) that had been forgotten for so long that
it more or less turned into a honeypot. When I discovered it, it was absolutely fascinating to see how many people had injected different text into the code, and numerous text files into the application directory with
different "<handle> was here" and "<group name> is #1" type scrawls. It was like looking at tags on a particular busy wall somewhere. :)

I guess on a positive note, if you're still running such an ancient version, people surely will have eventually stopped trying to compromise it and moved
on to more en vogue compromises for newer versions and apps. Security through obsolescene! :P

|08j |15A C K |08p |15H L A S H |08!

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Re: Re: old versions of Wordpress get compro
By: Atreyu to Ogg on Mon Dec 14 2020 07:17 am

The other thing is that if one file is infected or compromised, how would on know that the rest of the hundreds-if-not-thousands of WP files are also not compromised. How does one know or trust that a plug-in, theme or widget code is not vulnerable.

I keep a hash database of most files for most services I run.

I keep tagged backups of all of it and usually can reconstruct the whole system to any state in which it has been up to 2016. My backup and recovery methods have been battletested - ie I have actually had to recover from crash.

I do all this because of data loses, but if you had to do forensics you could check the haches of the files to know if they are good or not if you have any doubts of their validity in a given point in time.

The whole setup is not extremely solid because files that change often are just not tracked, but it is a nice start.

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On 12/14/2020 1:52 PM, between "jack phlash":

The solution was to simply delete the injected code.

You realize they're talking about trying to remediate the vulnerabilities that led to your site getting compromised, while you're talking about simply recovering your site, right? Unless you're running a giant ecommerce site or something, remediation is typically a high priority, and as far as recovery goes, most would recommend wiping it and starting over since you don't know what else they might have done.

There are only a few .php files that their techniques target. If there is anything else, I can tell if a file has been changed by looking at the date of the .php file.

Another quick way to check is to simply view the source webpage code that the browser produces. If their are injections, they will be obvious.

One company I worked for was running a server (not Wordpress, though I can't remember what it was at this point) that had been forgotten for so long that it more or less turned into a honeypot. When I discovered it, it was absolutely fascinating to see how many people had injected different text into
the code, and numerous text files into the application directory with different "<handle> was here" and "<group name> is #1" type scrawls. It was like looking at tags on a particular busy wall somewhere. :)

To a certain extent, I too find it fascinating how the php injections look. Most of the time, the original content is not affected, so the injected part can be easily selected and removed. I manage a few sites for charities, so I'm not getting paid enough to monitor php-injection shit and "upgrade" a website full-time. :/ But compromises do not occur that often. There hasn't been one in over a year now. My ISP also runs some kind of scanner every so often that looks for the tell-tale strings in php injections. That is helpful.

I guess on a positive note, if you're still running such an ancient version, people surely will have eventually stopped trying to compromise it and moved on to more en vogue compromises for newer versions and apps. Security through obsolescene! :P

I think that is what is happening. The hackers are focused on the vulnerabilities of the newer versions. Their new tricks and techniques do not work with older php server versions and WP versions with lessor capabilities.
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I learned a valuable (time is valuable) lesson from PayPal over the wee and the lesson is: Don't use PayPal!

I share your sentiments but I work for an American startup that pays via Paypal every month. I had no choice but to "play the game" and keep my

What advantage does a business have by using PayPal? International stuff?

My assumption is that businesses use it because it's somewhat difficult for customers to cancel their subscriptions.

I was using it for a web service that I no longer need. I still never got PayPal to help me with my login issue, but I got the other party to cancel my subscription, supposedly, finally, but I won't know for sure until the end of the month.

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Well that whole story was; shitty. I super hate when I get so many Apple subscriptions and don't keep track of all the $9.99 THINGS I have going

That's another scary story! My 4 year old knows how to download games from the App store on my iphone, and expensive junk is just a tap away!

But how could I say no to letting him play with my phone? lol

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
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I am on the other end of PayPal's business. I use it mostly as a
merchant.

But as a merchant, why PayPal? For international exchange purposes - right?
Are you in Spain?

but you are gonna pay for the privilege of working with these robbers.

I think I'm beginning to understand why merchants use it, but as a customer,
if I ever see "PayPal Only" again, I will look for alternatives just for that reason.

Also they are political and will crash your account if you have a
website that does not align well with their politics.

Wow, as if they didn't have enough strikes against them already!

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What advantage does a business have by using PayPal? International stuff?

PayPal was an industry leader when it comes to dealing with fraud. Whether or not that is still the case, I'm not sure, but I know they were very important at a time when other companies were failing to do this well, so a lot of
people trust them.

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Also they are political and will crash your account if you have a website that does not align well with their politics.

Wow, as if they didn't have enough strikes against them already!

This is very reductive. If you're going to claim there is a political reason for why they shut certain things down, be truthful about why. It's not
because there's some big mean liberal over there pulling the strings.

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Re: Re: PayPal
By: Shitty to Atreyu on Fri Dec 04 2020 06:14 pm

What advantage does a business have by using PayPal? International stuff?

The main "advantage" is that if you don't offer it, you are out of the game unless you are a really big business.

A *whole lot* of people won't buy at your online store unless you use an external payment processor which is considered trustworthy. PayPal is considered trustworthy by lots of *consumers*, to the point they won't buy from you if you don't offer PayPal as a payment method.

Big business who can *don't use PayPal*. They are such a headache that forfeiting PayPal fans is worth it. Besides, big websites with integrated credit card payment are usually considered trustworthy on their own so they needen't PayPal as much in order to appear to offer legit payment processing.

As for the actual, non-psychological advantages, PayPal allows you to accept payments without having to bear the usual conditions you get from a credit card processor. Namely, lots of credit card procesors bill you a minimum fee or have inoperativity clauses - long story short: if you sell few things a month, the fee for transaction you pay may be insanely high. PayPal allows you to process payments without agreeing to reach a minimum goal.

I don't think they are better for international operations than a good credit card processor, such as RedSys. PayPal is ok for medium international transfers, in case you want to pay international freelancers for art comissions or similar work. However, I think other platforms are going to eat PayPal's cake in that area.

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Re: Re: PayPal
By: Shitty to Arelor on Sat Dec 05 2020 07:14 am

But as a merchant, why PayPal? For international exchange purposes - right? Are you in Spain?

I am in Spain, but my main website does not serve international orders (yet).

There is https://store.richardfalken.com, but it is a hobby shop. I have PayPal enabled there but I encourage people to use something else :-P

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Re: Re: PayPal
By: ryan to Shitty on Thu Dec 17 2020 02:59 am

What advantage does a business have by using PayPal? International stuf

PayPal was an industry leader when it comes to dealing with fraud. Whether o not that is still the case, I'm not sure, but I know they were very importan at a time when other companies were failing to do this well, so a lot of people trust them.

I am a bit of a newcomer here - using it since 2010 or so tops.

The way they deal with fraud seems to be to freeze your merchant account as soon as some customer tells them there has been an issue with their order, and then it is on you to proove you didn't attempt to scam your customer.

This has never happened to me personally, because I encourage customers to use other payment methods when possible, but I have heard variations of this tale quite often so Iñ'd rather risk as few money as I can.

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Re: Re: PayPal
By: ryan to Shitty on Thu Dec 17 2020 03:00 am

Also they are political and will crash your account if you have a website that does not align well with their politics.

Wow, as if they didn't have enough strikes against them already!

This is very reductive. If you're going to claim there is a political reason for why they shut certain things down, be truthful about why. It's not because there's some big mean liberal over there pulling the strings.

Well, my hunch is that they closed Wikileaks' account for political reasons rather than legal reasons. Wikileaks was able to keep operating with credit card after PayPal stabbed them, and credit card processors are much, much, much more anal when it comes to transparency than PayPal. The advantage of credit card processors is they are much less likely to stick it into your back once you have passed the filters, it seems.

Same thing with Gab (but in their case, credit card agencies also stabbed them).


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The way they deal with fraud seems to be to freeze your merchant account as soon as some customer tells them there has been an issue with their order, and then it is on you to proove you didn't attempt to scam your customer.

That seems shitty :/ I know at PayPal's onset, there were multiple different companies all trying to be the standard online payment-as-a-service provider, and the reason PP was successful was because of their ability to actually detect fraudulent activity proactively. Maybe what I should have said was
that their claim to fame wasn't simply dealing with fraud, but this type of proactive fraud detection which is hard to notice as a consumer.

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PayPal was an industry leader when it comes to dealing with fraud.

That's a relief. I won't worry too much about them having my card # then.

It is my own fault for not keeping track of my login email & password, but it is surprising to see how difficult it's been to do anything about it.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
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A *whole lot* of people won't buy at your online store unless you use an external payment processor which is considered trustworthy. PayPal is

I get it. An online business will lose sales if they don't offer it.

accept payments without having to bear the usual conditions you get from
a credit card processor. Namely, lots of credit card procesors bill you

That explains why merchants love it, but this one that I'm dealing with uses PayPal only, and that's sure to turn a few customers away. I wouldn't want my business to depend on someone else's business that much.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
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On Saturday December 05, 2020, Shitty said to paulie420...

That's another scary story! My 4 year old knows how to download games
from the App store on my iphone, and expensive junk is just a tap away!

But how could I say no to letting him play with my phone? lol

Greatest baby sitter ever made.

[%] frank!netsurge // hysteriabbs.com // zeus 1.7 // amiga 4ooo [%]
[%] SciNet! . the ftn of the bbs scene . https://scinet-ftn.org [%]

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: hysteria bbs - hysteriabbs.com - amiga powered (77:1/111.0)

On Thursday December 17, 2020, Ryan said to Shitty...

PayPal was an industry leader when it comes to dealing with fraud.
Whether or not that is still the case, I'm not sure, but I know they
were very important at a time when other companies were failing to do
this well, so a lot of people trust them.

I soley use PayPal for retrorewind.ca (cheap plug). They make the entire transaction easy for both the seller and the merchant. Moving money around
is real easy and free (unless you want it right away in your account, there
is a small fee, otherwise it only takes a day).

They also offer great integration with various shipping options. I haven't
had a single customer complain about me offering only PayPal as an option.

[%] frank!netsurge // hysteriabbs.com // zeus 1.7 // amiga 4ooo [%]
[%] SciNet! . the ftn of the bbs scene . https://scinet-ftn.org [%]

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