• Which Linux?

    From nelgin@1:103/705 to All on Mon Aug 26 16:31:42 2024
    I've seen various conversations about what Linux people use to run Synchronet. While I'm happy with Ubuntu and it just "works", there are some things that do bug me.

    1. The large memory footprint
    2. apparmor crap all over the place
    3. Snaps. Hate them and they take up a lot of room

    What Linux is everyone using to run their Synchronet and more importantly, give me overwhelming evidence as to why I should try it...In other words, Ubuntu is the best OS for sbbs, change my mind.

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  • From Nightfox@1:103/705 to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 14:54:41 2024
    Re: Which Linux?
    By: nelgin to All on Mon Aug 26 2024 04:31 pm

    I've seen various conversations about what Linux people use to run Synchronet. While I'm happy with Ubuntu and it just "works", there are some things that do bug me.

    1. The large memory footprint
    2. apparmor crap all over the place
    3. Snaps. Hate them and they take up a lot of room

    What Linux is everyone using to run their Synchronet and more importantly, give me overwhelming evidence as to why I should try it...In other words, Ubuntu is the best OS for sbbs, change my mind.

    I've been using Linux Mint, and I've found that it also tends to just work, but I feel like I probably don't have overwhelming evidence to convince anyone it's better than Ubuntu. However, regarding snaps, snaps are disabled by default in Linux Mint (so you'd have to manually install the Snap Store if you want to). Also, I tend to prefer the default desktop environments available with Linux Mint and I don't like the recent versions of Gnome which are included with Ubuntu (but yes, I know you can install a different desktop environment).

    Linux Mint is based partly on Ubuntu, which is probably a reason it tends to just work, but might also have some things about Ubuntu you don't like..

    Nightfox

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  • From nelgin@1:103/705 to Nightfox on Mon Aug 26 18:02:33 2024
    Re: Which Linux?
    By: Nightfox to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 2024 14:54:41

    I've been using Linux Mint, and I've found that it also tends to just work, but I feel like I probably don't have overwhelming evidence to convince anyone it's better than Ubuntu. However, regarding snaps, snaps are disabled by default in Linux Mint (so you'd have to manually install the Snap Store if you want to). Also, I tend to prefer the default desktop environments available with Linux Mint and I don't like the recent versions of Gnome which are included with Ubuntu (but yes, I know you can install a different desktop environment).

    Since this is a server, I don't use a desktop GUI so what it uses doesn't really matter. I suppose I could remove all the snaps from Ubuntu since I don't really need them. Compiling my own kernel might help remove a lot of junk too, but these days it's very modulized so I really don't know where any savings would come from doing that.

    Maybe I'll remove snaps and apparmor and see what difference it makes.

    Linux Mint is based partly on Ubuntu, which is probably a reason it tends to just work, but might also have some things about Ubuntu you don't like..

    Maybe...

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  • From Ragnarok@1:103/705 to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 21:02:25 2024
    El 26/8/24 a las 18:31, nelgin escribió:
    I've seen various conversations about what Linux people use to run Synchronet. While I'm happy with Ubuntu and it just "works", there are some things that do bug me.

    1. The large memory footprint
    2. apparmor crap all over the place
    3. Snaps. Hate them and they take up a lot of room

    What Linux is everyone using to run their Synchronet and more importantly, give me overwhelming evidence as to why I should try it...In other words, Ubuntu is the best OS for sbbs, change my mind.

    ---
    � Synchronet � End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com

    I just use DEbian without any gui run very well...
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@1:103/705 to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 20:00:00 2024
    nelgin wrote to All <=-

    I've seen various conversations about what Linux people use to run Synchronet. While I'm happy with Ubuntu and it just "works", there are some things that do bug me.

    1. The large memory footprint
    2. apparmor crap all over the place
    3. Snaps. Hate them and they take up a lot of room

    What Linux is everyone using to run their Synchronet and more
    importantly, give me overwhelming evidence as to why I should try
    it...In other words, Ubuntu is the best OS for sbbs, change my mind.

    I use Slackware.

    1. Small memory footprint.
    2. I don't even know what apparmor is, but it's not in Slackware.
    3. Snaps (and flatpak) is not part of Slackware.
    4. No systemd. Simple init system.
    5. Very stable, with frequent security updates.
    6. Boots to CLI by default. If you want X, type "startx".
    7. Other distro users are envious of you for running Slackware.

    You should use Slackware.



    ... Something will have to be done, something irresponsible.
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  • From deon@1:103/705 to nelgin on Tue Aug 27 11:36:00 2024
    Re: Which Linux?
    By: nelgin to All on Mon Aug 26 2024 04:31 pm

    I've seen various conversations about what Linux people use to run Synchronet. While I'm happy with Ubuntu and it just "works", there are some things that do bug me.

    1. The large memory footprint
    2. apparmor crap all over the place
    3. Snaps. Hate them and they take up a lot of room

    What Linux is everyone using to run their Synchronet and more importantly, give me overwhelming evidence as to why I should try it...In other words, Ubuntu is the best OS for sbbs, change my mind.

    So I dont like ubuntu for the same reasons. I only use a ubuntu laptop for developing (using docker containers), because "Docker Desktop" changed their license rules and I have a corporate mac that I didnt want any issues with licensing.

    My synchronet runs in docker, has done for years, and is built from debian. I havent updated it in a long time - will do one day. I used to have it build automatically in my gitlab environment, but I recently switched out gitlab for gitea - it's significantly lighter on resources. The build system is different, so I need to rejig that for SBBS.

    Running sbbs in docker adds another complexity that you might not want - but it suits me, given I shift things around frequently and its easy to move stuff around. I like using containers, because the app in the container can think it has everything it wants and more, but outside of it its just a mouse in the corner.

    The docker host is rocky 8 (minimal install), only because the machine it is on cannot run rocky 9.


    ...ëîåï

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  • From nelgin@1:103/705 to Gamgee on Mon Aug 26 21:12:37 2024
    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: Gamgee to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 2024 20:00:00

    4. No systemd. Simple init system.

    Actually, I do make a lot of use of the systemd features for handling my modems that would be much more difficult to do with systemd and also running each part of synchronet separately (terminal, ftp, web, mail, services) which also has a controlling start/stop module.

    I didn't like systemd either until I started to see how powerful it was, so that may be a requirement.

    7. Other distro users are envious of you for running Slackware.

    I will never be jealous of anyone for any reason.

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@1:103/705 to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 21:48:00 2024
    nelgin wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: Gamgee to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 2024 20:00:00

    4. No systemd. Simple init system.

    Actually, I do make a lot of use of the systemd features for handling
    my modems that would be much more difficult to do with systemd and also running each part of synchronet separately (terminal, ftp, web, mail, services) which also has a controlling start/stop module.

    I didn't like systemd either until I started to see how powerful it
    was, so that may be a requirement.

    Yep, I know it's quite widely used these days, but it's not for me. I
    know it suits others well, and that's all good.

    7. Other distro users are envious of you for running Slackware.

    I will never be jealous of anyone for any reason.

    That was an attempt at humor, which may have failed.



    ... ...and we had to chisel taglines into the walls of the cave.
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  • From Xofraq@1:103/705 to deon on Tue Aug 27 06:50:07 2024
    Re: Which Linux?
    By: deon to nelgin on Tue Aug 27 2024 11:36 am

    I have just setup a Raspberry Pi 4 with Synchronet. It has been almost 30 years and boy have things changed. It was pretty simple, and a lot of stuff has been automated. I am too new to have an opinion at this point, but I am sure I will develop some soon. :-) Fun to be back in the BBS world!

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  • From Nightfox@1:103/705 to Gamgee on Tue Aug 27 09:50:43 2024
    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: Gamgee to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 2024 09:48 pm

    7. Other distro users are envious of you for running Slackware.

    That was an attempt at humor, which may have failed.

    I thought it was funny. ;)

    Nightfox

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  • From Mike Powell@1:103/705 to NELGIN on Tue Aug 27 10:29:00 2024
    I've seen various conversations about what Linux people use to run Synchronet.
    While I'm happy with Ubuntu and it just "works", there are some things that do
    bug me.

    1. The large memory footprint
    2. apparmor crap all over the place
    3. Snaps. Hate them and they take up a lot of room

    What Linux is everyone using to run their Synchronet and more importantly, giv
    me overwhelming evidence as to why I should try it...In other words, Ubuntu is
    the best OS for sbbs, change my mind.

    Debian

    1) Ubuntu is based on Debian, so you can probably get most packages you are using, and you are already familiar with apt.
    2) Debian doesn't force you to use snaps
    3) Debian seems to have a smaller memory footprint here vs. when I was
    running ubuntu
    4) For me personally, I have been able to sucessfully apt dist-upgrade with debian, something I could never do with ubuntu (unless I wanted the result
    to be a system that stopped working).

    Downside is that Debian stable is not going to be as bleeding edge as
    Ubuntu, but you can run testing or even unstable (or a mix) to stay as
    bleeding edge as you wish.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Tryin' is the first step towards failure." - Homer
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  • From Accession@1:103/705 to Nightfox on Tue Aug 27 18:09:16 2024
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:50:42 -0700, you wrote:

    That was an attempt at humor, which may have failed.

    I thought it was funny. ;)

    Me too, especially the part about Slackware. :D

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
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  • From Accession@1:103/705 to Mike Powell on Tue Aug 27 18:24:42 2024
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 15:29:00 -0500, you wrote:

    Debian

    1) Ubuntu is based on Debian, so you can probably get most packages you are
    using, and you are already familiar with apt.
    2) Debian doesn't force you to use snaps
    3) Debian seems to have a smaller memory footprint here vs. when I was running ubuntu
    4) For me personally, I have been able to sucessfully apt dist-upgrade with
    debian, something I could never do with ubuntu (unless I wanted the result to be a system that stopped working).

    If Nelgin is very comfortable with how Ubuntu works, then yes, this is probably the best option.

    Downside is that Debian stable is not going to be as bleeding edge as Ubuntu, but you can run testing or even unstable (or a mix) to stay as bleeding edge as you wish.

    While testing and unstable Debian aren't even very close to bleeding edge, the 'stable' branch is /way/ off. Debian has definitely made a name for itself as being stable, though, that's for sure!

    I'll stick with Archlinux. People seem to be afraid of rolling distributions, but for a BBS hobby server that I'm not making any money on, I don't mind 'living on the edge', if you even want to call it that. Last 'bad' package that actually made it through the rigorous testing that is done was probably 2-3 years ago, and was fixed within 48 hours if you didn't already revert to the previous version of said package after warnings about said package were sent out to all via the package manager.

    It's about as bleeding edge as you can get besides doing some 'Linux From Scratch' type stuff (but I don't care to compile my entire system any more), and has been stable as all get out for me over the last decade or more. Very well tested, very well supported, and great documentation.

    Now, if you want your distro to break more than your BBS does, give Gentoo a try! :D

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
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  • From Nightfox@1:103/705 to Accession on Tue Aug 27 17:38:26 2024
    Re: Which Linux?
    By: Accession to Mike Powell on Tue Aug 27 2024 06:24 pm

    Now, if you want your distro to break more than your BBS does, give Gentoo a try! :D

    I think there are some Linux distros these days that are a lot better than some I had tried using years ago. It seemed common for a new version of a distro to break something that worked well in the pervious version. Around 1999-2001, my favorite distro was SuSE, as it had an X configurator that did a good job at detecting hardware and allowing the graphical environment to work, but then there was a newer version where the hardware detection just didn't work very well on my PC anymore. I had also tried another distro called Makdrake where the same thing happened (I think Mandrake became Mandriva).

    Nightfox

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  • From DaiTengu@1:103/705 to Gamgee on Wed Aug 28 12:50:00 2024
    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: Gamgee to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 2024 08:00 pm

    I use Slackware.

    1. Small memory footprint.
    2. I don't even know what apparmor is, but it's not in Slackware. 3. Snaps (and flatpak) is not part of Slackware. 4. No systemd. Simple init system.
    5. Very stable, with frequent security updates. 6. Boots to CLI by default. If you want X, type "startx". 7. Other distro users are envious of you for running Slackware.

    You should use Slackware.

    Slackware was my first distro. I distinctly remember running 0.99 kernels, so it must have been part of the 1.0 release. (I also remember the transition from a.out to ELF binaries)

    At one point I remember stealing a Slackware CD-ROM out of the back of one of the "Learn Linux" books at a local national-chain bookstore. Wikipedia says says the first Slackware release on CD was in late 1995, but I know it was at least a year or more before that. Maybe the Wikipedia entry is for an "official" CD-ROM. :shrug:

    My NAS machine runs "unRAID", which is Slackware based, so I guess I still run a version of Slackware today. :) Along with Gentoo, a few Red-Hat based VMs, a Kali VM, a NetBSD box, and some Debian-based systems on raspberry pis here at home)

    And then the thousands of RHEL-based systems I "own" at work, too. :)

    ...May you live all the days of your life.

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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 28 14:08:00 2024
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: Gamgee to nelgin on Mon Aug 26 2024 08:00 pm

    I use Slackware.

    1. Small memory footprint.
    2. I don't even know what apparmor is, but it's not in Slackware. 3. Snaps (and flatpak) is not part of Slackware. 4. No systemd. Simple init system.
    5. Very stable, with frequent security updates. 6. Boots to CLI by default. If you want X, type "startx". 7. Other distro users are envious of you for running Slackware.

    You should use Slackware.

    Slackware was my first distro. I distinctly remember running 0.99 kernels, so it must have been part of the 1.0 release. (I also remember the transition from a.out to ELF binaries)

    My experience doesn't go quite that far back.

    At one point I remember stealing a Slackware CD-ROM out of the back of
    one of the "Learn Linux" books at a local national-chain bookstore. Wikipedia says says the first Slackware release on CD was in late 1995, but I know it was at least a year or more before that. Maybe the
    Wikipedia entry is for an "official" CD-ROM. :shrug:

    Yes, I think you're right on that. I think some time in 1994. Maybe
    packaged as/by something called "InfoMagic" IIRC.

    My NAS machine runs "unRAID", which is Slackware based, so I guess I
    still run a version of Slackware today. :) Along with Gentoo, a few Red-Hat based VMs, a Kali VM, a NetBSD box, and some Debian-based
    systems on raspberry pis here at home)

    And then the thousands of RHEL-based systems I "own" at work, too. :)

    Nice! I've used Slackware as my daily driver since about 2003, and
    first started fiddling with it around 1998. My BBS machine runs version
    15.0. Just recently I got a new laptop and have migrated it to using
    "MX Linux" which I really like a lot. I still have some other
    test/server boxes running Slackware, but this laptop with MX is really
    nice. Some things are just so much easier... Slack will always be my
    "first love". ;-)



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
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  • From Mike Powell@1:103/705 to XOFRAQ on Wed Aug 28 10:26:00 2024
    I have just setup a Raspberry Pi 4 with Synchronet. It has been almost 30 year
    and boy have things changed. It was pretty simple, and a lot of stuff has been
    automated. I am too new to have an opinion at this point, but I am sure I will
    develop some soon. :-) Fun to be back in the BBS world!

    Welcome back!


    * SLMR 2.1a * All the world's indeed a stage & we are merely players...
    ---
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  • From Mike Powell@1:103/705 to ACCESSION on Wed Aug 28 10:28:00 2024
    Downside is that Debian stable is not going to be as bleeding edge as Ubuntu, but you can run testing or even unstable (or a mix) to stay as bleeding edge as you wish.

    While testing and unstable Debian aren't even very close to bleeding edge, the
    'stable' branch is /way/ off. Debian has definitely made a name for itself as being stable, though, that's for sure!

    I might be wrong, but my assumption is that using testing and unstable
    would keep you as bleeding edge as using Ubuntu would. My impression was
    that Ubuntu didn't get more bleeding edge than those branches.

    I agree that Debian is not for you if you must have the very bleeding
    edge. ;)


    * SLMR 2.1a * ...a host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance...
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  • From Nightfox@1:103/705 to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 28 13:41:54 2024
    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Wed Aug 28 2024 12:50 pm

    Slackware was my first distro. I distinctly remember running 0.99 kernels, so it must have been part of the 1.0 release. (I also remember the transition from a.out to ELF binaries)

    I remember my dad trying out Slackware Linux around 1995 or 1996. I think I got a copy too, on floppy disks, and at the time I had a 386 PC, though I don't remember if I had fully installed Linux; I remember it had a mode where you could boot/start into Linux from DOS, which I may have been doing. And I remember trying out the game Doom for Linux at some point around that time..

    Nightfox

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  • From Accession@1:103/705 to Mike Powell on Wed Aug 28 17:47:26 2024
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:28:00 -0500, you wrote:

    I might be wrong, but my assumption is that using testing and unstable would keep you as bleeding edge as using Ubuntu would. My impression was that Ubuntu didn't get more bleeding edge than those branches.

    That could very well be true, but standard Ubuntu is also not bleeding edge, unless maaaaybe you use their testing or unstable repos.

    I agree that Debian is not for you if you must have the very bleeding edge. ;)

    Or really, anything that has been released in the past year or more, stable or not.

    Put it this way. Debian has a release. Most of the stuff in that release is already almost a year old (or more). Then, you're stuck with that stuff until Debian does another release. So by the time it's time to upgrade to the next Debian release, your current software is probably at least 2+ years old (if Debian is still releasing yearly-ish).

    But that is why Debian is considered stable by most people that actually matter in the realm of Linux server admins. :)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
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  • From Amessyroom@1:103/705 to nelgin on Wed Aug 28 20:59:51 2024
    I am using Rocky Linux 9.4. The only issue I've had is not having dosemu2 easily available. I have dosemu available to my system thanks to the mock tool. I was able to take a fedora 40 src rpm and rebuild for rl 9.4

    I used it to allow me to have access to a RHEL 9.4 compatible system as we will be rolling out 9.4 at work.

    Cannot really give any reason why it is better than Ubuntu. But wanted to share I have it working on this version of linux.

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  • From DaiTengu@1:103/705 to Nightfox on Thu Aug 29 11:42:20 2024
    Re: Re: Which Linux?
    By: Nightfox to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 28 2024 01:41 pm

    I remember my dad trying out Slackware Linux around 1995 or 1996. I think I got a copy too, on floppy disks, and at the time I had a 386 PC, though I don't remember if I had fully installed Linux; I remember it had a mode where you could boot/start into Linux from DOS, which I may have been doing. And I remember trying out the game Doom for Linux at some point around that time..

    I still have PTSD flashbacks from trying to get PPP/SLiP dialup working on Slackware.

    ...Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons.

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  • From Xofraq@1:103/705 to Mike Powell on Thu Aug 29 10:12:44 2024
    Re: Which Linux?
    By: Mike Powell to XOFRAQ on Wed Aug 28 2024 10:26 am

    Thank you! I am a little rusty and look forward to learning new things and meeting new folks.

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