Hello Bj”rn,

On Monday May 27 2019 12:43, you wrote to mark lewis:

But you are right, it was a handful of apostrophises that caused all
this brouhaha.

"Brouhaha"?

As opposed to the two decades of brouhaha that you have raised over two dots over the letter 'o'?

Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code page
in many countries,

For DOS. Many Winodows applications default to CP1252 AKA "Windows Western". AKA "ANSI Latin 1" and my guess is that is exactly what happened with Ward's article. CP 1252 has three different characters that look like the ASCII apostrophe character "'". (0X27). In CP1252 there is also the leading single quote character (0X91) and the closing single quote character (0X92).

My guess is that Ward used a "smart" Windows editor that translated the apostrophe character into the closing single quote character. (0X92) Most likely this was unintentional and he was unaware of it.

Actually CP1252 is not such a bad choice. (For those in the western world that want to stick to single byte encoding.) Except for the characters in the range 0X80-0x9F it is the same as Latin-1 which is popular with the Linux gang. In Latin 1 0X80-0X9F are control characters, in CP1252 they are printable character. With among them the EURO sign. Very nice for the Euro lovers. (Yeah, I know, you are not one of them).

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows-1252

So I think I'll stick to CP 850 when posting the Fidonews in the echoes. Any objections, save from the UTF-8 fanatics?

It would seem I am disqualified from objecting. So let me add this:

If CP850 is the "Fidonews character set", you should mention this in an updated version of ARTSPEC.DOS and in the Fidonews epilog.

Also you should have rejected Ward's article as it is not in CP850. You recently stated that processing of articles is not automatic, so don't give us that excuse. You claim you actually do "editing". So you should have noticed the deviation and "edited" it.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

MvdV> "Brouhaha"?

MvdV> As opposed to the two decades of brouhaha that you have raised over two
MvdV> dots over the letter 'o'?

Can you verify that? All I've ever said is that I appreciate the effort it takes to get my name correctly spelled in some countries -- and I highly respect those that do.

Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code page
in many countries,

MvdV> For DOS.

In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS based network. All you have to do is look at all the eight bit structures of all our definitions. Ever since we got 16-bit and then 32 and now 64-bit systems, I've been fighting with stuff like big vs. little endians and similar, I happen to know.





..

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MvdV> You claim you actually do "editing". So you should have noticed the
MvdV> deviation and "edited" it.

Of course I should have. But when it comes to contributions from some of the major ones, I tend to just take a short glance at it. It usually is perfectly done so I trust it to be perfect as usual.

Just as I missed your automated contribution, in the midst of one new every week, not so long ago, where in an ideal world, I should have noticed the longer than 70 chars/line error.

I'm just a human being, performing a job without pay (and very little appreciation) for soon to be 20 years. If you want a perfect editor on the job, you probably have to pay up big time. In the meantime you'll have to accept a total catastrophe like the one with a few miscoded apostrophises.



..

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Hello Bj”rn,

On Tuesday May 28 2019 13:47, you wrote to me:

I'm just a human being, performing a job without pay (and very
little appreciation) for soon to be 20 years. If you want a perfect
editor on the job, you probably have to pay up big time. In the
meantime you'll have to accept a total catastrophe like the one with a
few miscoded apostrophises.

Of course. As a human and unpaid volunteer you are entitled to a fair share of errors. And yes, shit happens. And indeed, two miscoded apostrophes are no big deal.

What rushed against my feathers is that your Pavlov reflex was to go in denial mode and start shooting at the messenger by declaring my technical analysis as "totally wrong", where in fact is was 95% spot on.

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Bj”rn Felten wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

MvdV> You claim you actually do "editing". So you should have
MvdV> noticed the deviation and "edited" it.

Of course I should have. But when it comes to contributions
from some of the major ones, I tend to just take a short glance
at it. It usually is perfectly done so I trust it to be perfect
as usual.

So you just ASSumed that it was correct. Usually a mistake.

Just as I missed your automated contribution, in the midst of
one new every week, not so long ago, where in an ideal world, I
should have noticed the longer than 70 chars/line error.

Seems like long line(s) would have been quite obvious.

I'm just a human being, performing a job without pay (and very
little appreciation) for soon to be 20 years. If you want a
perfect editor on the job, you probably have to pay up big time.
In the meantime you'll have to accept a total catastrophe like
the one with a few miscoded apostrophises.

But are you really "editing" anything? Or do you just do a couple
of clicks on your Windows system and various utilities/scripts
cobble together what passes for the FidoNews? No real human
interaction required.



... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

But are you really "editing" anything?

Have you ever made a contribution, or are you just happy standing there in the Peanut Gallery complaining?

If you had, you would know...


..

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Hello Dan,

On Tuesday May 28 2019 07:43, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

Just as I missed your automated contribution, in the midst of
one new every week, not so long ago, where in an ideal world, I
should have noticed the longer than 70 chars/line error.

Seems like long line(s) would have been quite obvious.

It is not. If it were obvious *I* would have noticed it myself when editing the table that was part of the submission. While I still wonder why in this day and age Bj”rn's softwae is so harsh and dumb that it totally rejects an article if a single line exceeds 70 characters, instead of dealing with it in a more intelligent and relaxed way, I fully accept that the error was mine. And so I have taken steps to make sure it does not happen again.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hi! Ward,

On 29 May 19 11:13, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance expresses
himself.

Or when FLAK is mispelled. Or, was he really 'channelling' Roberta? Mmm.

Cheers,
Paul.

... Operator, trace this call and tell me where I am.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

Hello Michiel,

MvdV>>> AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both
MvdV>>> cyrillic and the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.

I have the impression, that the majority that prefers Cyrrillic for
their conversation, mainly use other encodings than UTF-8

MvdV> I think your impression is correct. In the echos where Russian or Ukranian
MvdV> is the dominant language, CP866 is the default character encoding. For
MvdV> files they often use KOI8-r.

CP866 is preferred by most Russians, but is not the only character
set that can be used for cyrillic. There are also many other peoples
who write with a cyrillic character set, so it is not exclusive.

Those who are able to read UTF-8 encoded messages are free to do so in
echo areas that promote that encoding. Publishing UTF-8 encoded
messages in general areas like FIDONEWS, where UTF-8 readers are a
minoriity, is even worse than mixing 8-bit encodings in one message.

MvdV> That is a matter of opinion. As a techie I would say that mixing 8 bit
MvdV> encodings in one and the same message or in one and the same file is
MvdV> technically incorrect and therefore "worse".

Could be. But when the original message is written with the
same character set all should be well and good.

--Lee

--
I Take A Sheet In The Pool

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Paul,

It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX
system were presented in Uppercase

You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

I think you are.

Although using uppercase in telegram is a matter of style, using
uppercase in telex is a must in the international telex network.

Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
lower-case.

I think you are momentarily confused.

Telegrams were printed in uppercase due to style and tradition.
Telex can be lowercase, but must be uppercase in the international
telex network.

I worked in an environment that used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, and they were all in uppercase.

The Baudot code is still common in European telex systems, which
is why only uppercase letters are allowed in the international telex
network.

I can produce a .jpg copy of the NASA farewell telex to the Honeysuckle Creek Tracking mob as evidence.

Reporters and journalists from around the world also read
it in uppercase, not just scientists and engineers ...

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Ward,

Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
lower-case.

I think you are momentarily confused. I worked in an environment that
used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, ...

I worked for a few decades in an environment which actually ran the service,
ran the exchanges, commercialized the teletypes and whatever.

And I can send you jpg-s that I have.

I am not excluding there were other switched non-public networks with teletype devices, but when you use the word "telex" then we are talking about the public switched network run by incumbent national operators following ITU-guidelines.

You think not?

I know not.

Telex is 5-digit code.
62 possible character codes minus 2 shift characters.
This is known as the Baudot code.
Still commonly used in the European telex system.
Which is why only *uppercase* letters are allowed
in the international telex network.

Oh, I love it when the former president of Greenpeace is busted. :)

--Lee (I still have my press credentials)

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Bj”rn,

MvdV>> I noticed that as well. Our estimed Fidonews editor has patched the
MvdV>> software to accept non-ASCII characters but he has neglected to

specify

MvdV>> the encoding for submitted articles, From what I gleen the article

was

MvdV>> submitted using CP1252 Aka Centraal-Europees Windows. The articles

are

MvdV>> published with a "CHRS 850 2" kludge.

MvdV>> That's where it goes wrong.

Oh, BTW, your analysis is totally wrong.

Is it?

There are two programs involved here. The first is MAKENEWS.EXE that I indeed patched even before I became editor -- in October 2001 to be exact.

Frank Vest was editor at the time.

This is the program that produces the actual Fidonews.

Which had been in use for some time.

For obvious reasons there are no kludges involved here, and neither are there any in the pure text files of the submitted articles.

Nobody saw a real need, so nothing was done to update the file.

The second program is the NEWSPREP program that posts the Fidonews in this and another related echo. I don't have to patch it, because I have the source code.

With these two files the FidoNews can be published in its current
form. What is the problem publishing articles written in cyrillic?

And I did make a change in it a decade or so ago, to go for "CHRS 850 2". It
was on your request, so that your copyright symbol would show properly...

How inclusive should the FidoNews be? Should the FidoNews look
backward, by resorting to "7 bit pure ASCII only"? Or forward, to
include anything and everything under the sun?

The world speaks many languages. Not English only.

--Lee

--
As Good As It Looks

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Hello Kees,

MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and

patches

MvdV>> his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

That would make Donald Trump happy.
Even though he can't write.

--Lee

--
It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Lee,

On Wednesday May 29 2019 14:10, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code
MvdV>> display lower case.

The Baudot code is still common in the European telex system,

The European telex system is history. In The Netherlands the plug was pulled in 2007.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hi! Lee,

On 29 May 19 14:10, you wrote to me:

You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

I think you are.

Although using uppercase in telegram is a matter of style, using
uppercase in telex is a must in the international telex network.

I'm starting to think there may have been different ITU-Ts at various times past, or different ITU-Ts for each as-yet-unformed-Fidonet zone. I've looked at some guidelines that uncle Google recommended (about six until I gave up), and all the 'letter case' rules and examples are in uppercase ASCII.

Cheers,
Paul.

... Knock firmly but softly. I like soft firm knockers.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

Hello Bj”rn,

MvdV>> What rushed against my feathers is that your Pavlov reflex was to

go in

MvdV>> denial mode and start shooting at the messenger by declaring my
MvdV>> technical analysis as "totally wrong", where in fact is was 95%

spot on.

As a scientist I'm very much dedicated to the GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage
Out) principle in any form of analysis.

If you use the GI (i.e. the assumption that it was one and the same program that "failed") in your analysis, my "Pavlov reflex" made me classify the outcome as 100% GO.

To one of my students from yesteryears I would have said "do again, do right".

Chuck Mangione had a saying to all musicians aspiring to perform
in public - "Play it right."

No explanation needed for musicians to get the point.

There is one exception.

A band I once heard at a casino that was so bad I wish i could
forget the band's name. Had their own groupies that would follow
them wherever they performed. I asked people at the casino what
they thought of the band. Everybody said the band was "horrible"
and "terrible" and other words that cannot be said in public.

This horrible band was so bad it had somehow managed to find gigs
every weekend at various places in the region. I made sure I never
went to see them anywhere they performed in public on purpose.

One day I was at a book fair where old books and stuff is sold
for cheap. Really cheap. And there, on a table of records and
cd's, was a new recording of this band. I forget what I paid
for it, but it was less than a dollar.

Boot Leg Joe.

If ever you find a bar owner in Sweden who wants to hire the
worst band in the civilized world, tell him/her to call them up.

--Lee

--
Every Bottom Needs A Top

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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=================================================================
GENERAL ARTICLES =================================================================

Ward Dossche’s Corolary on Godwin’s Law
Ward Dossche - 2:292/854


"When a discussion in an electronic forum with a US citizen
grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the
likelihood of becoming sidetracked to US Presidential
elections, the 2nd Amendment or ‘We saved your asses in
WW2’ increases exponentially."

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi
Analogies) is a saying made by Mike Godwin in 1990.
The law states: "As a discussion on the Internet
grows longer, the likelihood of a comparison of a
person's being compared to Hitler or another Nazi
reference, increases.".


-----------------------------------------------------------------

--- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
* Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)

Hello Wilfred,

On Monday May 27 2019 09:31, you wrote to Bjorn Felten:

@CHRS: CP850 2

Ward Dosscheãs Corolary on Godwinãs Law

Something seems wrong here...

I noticed that as well. Our estimed Fidonews editor has patched the software to accept non-ASCII characters but he has neglected to specify the encoding for submitted articles, From what I gleen the article was submitted using CP1252 Aka Centraal-Europees Windows. The articles are published with a "CHRS 850 2" kludge.

That's where it goes wrong.

I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Something seems wrong here...

Well, if in doubt, there's always the actual Fidonews issue (FNEWTA21.ZIP) to rely on.



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MvdV> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and patches
MvdV> his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

Yeah, right. That would surely increase the number of contributions.



..

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Hello Kees,

On Monday May 27 2019 11:00, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
MvdV>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

For the ASCII only, English only community: Agreed.

However... the editor has rebelled against the dominant ASCII only/English only culture in Fiodonet for decades and has repeatedly stated that articles in other languages are welcome. He has also been bragging that his software "has been patched for"/"is capable of" dealing with non-ASCII characters.

Considering that these days most messages in Fiodonet are written in Cyrillic, one would expect that articles written in an encoding that covers Cyrillic are accepted.

Also considering that the editor has been making an issue of the correct spelling of his first name for decades, one would expect that articles written in an encoding that covers the 'o' diaeresis are also accepted.

AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both cyrillic and the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all the people all of the time.

-- Originally by poet John Lydgate,
made famous by Abraham Lincoln.


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
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On 2019 May 27 10:58:04, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

The second program is the NEWSPREP program that posts the Fidonews in
this and another related echo. I don't have to patch it, because I
have the source code. And I did make a change in it a decade or so
ago, to go for "CHRS 850 2". It was on your request, so that your copyright symbol would show properly...

apparently the character translation table is broken with regard to apostrophies...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... 30. When you're with new friends, don't just talk about old friends.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello Bj”rn,

On Monday May 27 2019 10:24, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

Something seems wrong here...

Well, if in doubt, there's always the actual Fidonews issue (FNEWTA21.ZIP) to rely on.

That does not solve the problem.

For starters, there is no indication in the file itself what character encoding is used.

So one has to make some assumptions about the encoding and do some trial and error. If I select CP437/CP850, the 'o' diaeresis in your name in the header is properly displayed. If I select CP1252 the single quote characters in Wards article are correctly displayed.

I can find no encoding that results in both being corectly displayed.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

apparently the character translation table is broken with regard to apostrophies...

Well, there is no translation taking place at all here (only at the readers' side where applicable). But you are right, it was a handful of apostrophises that caused all this brouhaha.

Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code page in many countries, including various English-speaking locales (e.g. in the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Canada).

CP 850 differs from CP 437 (previously used in the echo postings) in that many of the box drawing characters, Greek letters, and various symbols were replaced with additional Latin letters with diacritics, thus greatly improving support for Western European languages (all characters from ISO 8859-1 are included).

So I think I'll stick to CP 850 when posting the Fidonews in the echoes. Any objections, save from the UTF-8 fanatics?



..

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Hi! Ward,

On 27 May 19 16:05, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX
system were presented in Uppercase

You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

I think you are.

Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
lower-case.

I think you are momentarily confused. I worked in an environment that used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, and they were all in uppercase. I can produce a .jpg copy of the NASA farewell telex to the Honeysuckle Creek Tracking mob as evidence.

Cheers,
Paul.

... Objects in taglines are closer than they appear.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)