i'll just keep running the old one that puts in fully characters when i use the arrow keys.
okay it's not translating the \1X color codes.
any idea what i can do about that?
i'm running 3.17
instead of the regular interface i'm used to. it's a bunch of \1
code mess
Can you show me a screenshot? Because if I understand you
correctly, I've never seen SlyEdit do that. And this is the first
time I've heard about this issue from anyone.
https://i.imgur.com/bvP7Oxg.png
Can you show me a screenshot? Because if I understand you
correctly, I've never seen SlyEdit do that. And this is the first
time I've heard about this issue from anyone.
https://i.imgur.com/bvP7Oxg.png
Re: Re: This strange world
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 18 2020 08:06 pm
Can you show me a screenshot? Because if I understand you
correctly, I've never seen SlyEdit do that. And this is the first
time I've heard about this issue from anyone.
https://i.imgur.com/bvP7Oxg.png
I just updated the SlyEd173.zip archive - Try downloading it again. I had a look and realized the color configuration files I put in there are for an im-progress version I'm working on to support \1 in those .cfg files rather than the control character. I have replaced those color .cfg files in the archive with ones which should work.
okay it works now. i recommend you rename the directories in that archive to mods and ctrl, though thanks for making the archive!
Re: SlyEdit color code issue
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Jul 19 2020 03:55 pm
okay it works now. i recommend you rename the directories in that
archive to mods and ctrl, though thanks for making the archive!
No problem.
And it sounded like you were interested in the change subject feature - The hotkey for that is Ctrl-S.
You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..
Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browsers"?
Nightfox
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I'm not sure if I fully trust any of them, Microsoft included.
Nightfox
Certainly, I'm a 00s kid and I've certainly never have had the chance to experience BBSes in their heyday, I pretty much got introduced straight into the internet around 2007-2008. I do think that there's a certain charm in BBSes, it's more "raw" presentation as compared to the highly graphic filled, attention-grabbing, internet of today.
Still getting my grips into the whole thing but so far I'm enjoying it.
they want to do subscription models because they want that money to keep rolling in. some of these cheap ass companies are running 20 year or older shit and still expecting support for it.
Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-
Re: Re: This strange world
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm
You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..
Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browsers"?
Nightfox
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been
lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc...
by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best
damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which
is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
Re: Re: This strange world
By: MRO to Underminer on Sat Aug 01 2020 12:16 pm
they want to do subscription models because they want that money to keep rolling in. some of these cheap ass companies are running 20 year or older shit and still expecting support for it.
I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.
Re: Re: This strange world
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 18 2020 08:06 pm
okay it's not translating the \1X color codes.
any idea what i can do about that?
i'm running 3.17
instead of the regular interface i'm used to. it's a bunch of \1
code mess
Can you show me a screenshot? Because if I understand you
correctly, I've never seen SlyEdit do that. And this is the first
time I've heard about this issue from anyone.
https://i.imgur.com/bvP7Oxg.png
I'm not sure what's going on there. I also tried on my BBS with mTelnet and it looks fine to me.
Digital Man - It looks like the latest version of SlyEdit is outputting literal \1 strings for Mro, and most of the color/attribute codes aren't being sent as ANSI. Do you know of any things that might cause that?
The biggest reason to change is to avoid being dependent on a singular company that absolutely does NOT have your best interests at heart. That and to make computer use fun again. If you ever get the urge, there's all kinds of things to tweak, customize, or substitute in Linux. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's great for those of us for whom it is.
I am a total newbie to this whole scene too. I was completely unaware BBSes existed until around April 2020, which is a little strange as I was born around the mid-80s. I am here for the charm too... sure BBSes are
quite unweildy, and the way in which the messeges appear in chronological order (in no way related to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging the user to read EVERYTHING) is hilarious...
I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.
And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL
I like customizability and tweaking things. But these days, I tend to like using a computer as a tool for doing things (including playing games) and getting work done, rather than using a PC just for the sake of using a PC.
sure BBSes are quite unweildy, the way in which the messeges appear in chronological order (in no way rel to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging the user to read EVERYTHING is hilarious...
Underminer wrote to Nightfox <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Nightfox to Underminer on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:47 am
I like customizability and tweaking things. But these days, I tend to like using a computer as a tool for doing things (including playing games) and getting work done, rather than using a PC just for the sake of using a PC.
I hear that, and it also factors into my Linux usage. I always feel
like you have to fight with Windows a lot of the time, even if it's for something as simple or stupid as the god aweful way W10 handles
updates. It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work. Not
to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right pain in
the ass to get working right.
For the longest time I was a casual Linux user, then started playing
with dual booting for a few years, then the aha moment happened when I noticed I could significantly speed up certain daily workloads in
Linux. Once that happened Linux became my go to and I only booted
Windows for a couple games that didn't run on Linux. Then I realized I really didn't care enough about one or two games to bother maintaining
a Windows install or having to dual boot...
These days if you see me having to use Windows for any reason other
than supporting a client, you're likely to hear a string of blue
language very shortly afterwards. Having to use Windows for anything irritates me, and actual use of it tends to piss me off in short order.
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do,
that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
[[..]] It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my
main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work. Not
to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right pain in
the ass to get working right.
For the longest time I was a casual Linux user, then started playing
with dual booting for a few years, then the aha moment happened when I noticed I could significantly speed up certain daily workloads in
Linux. Once that happened Linux became my go to and I only booted
Windows for a couple games that didn't run on Linux. Then I realized I really didn't care enough about one or two games to bother maintaining
a Windows install or having to dual boot...
[[snip]] being able to do this really efficiently the Linux way instead^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of cumbersome the Windows way. With a customisable GUI such as FVWM,
you can remove most to all the convoluted GUI jockeying you do with
Windows. Things like pruning spam e-mail before I download it,
Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:16 pm
I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.
And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL
I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
you think rip you off less than Microsoft?
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been
lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc...
by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best
damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which
is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can
do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming,
automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer,
run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between
them at will.
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking
licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine
with few, if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of
it.
Re: Re: This strange world
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm
You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..
Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browser
Nightfox
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which is only on per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.
I don't think that's quite unique to BBSes. When I started using the intern in 1995, I used to read newsgroups sometimes, and in a newsgroup reader like Forte Agent, messages in newsgroups were often listed the same way. If you unfamiliar, you could probably find a copy of Forte Agent or another news reader somewhere and connect it to a Synchronet BBS (Synchronet supports the newsgroup protocol) and see how it works. Many desktop email programs used also support newsgroups, such as Mozilla Thunderbird (though I'm not sure if still does).
Nightfox
I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.
And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL
I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
you think rip you off less than Microsoft?
Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free /
open-source software.
(in no way related to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging the user to read EVERYTHING)
Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 02 2020 07:43 am
I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.
And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL
I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
you think rip you off less than Microsoft?
Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free / open-source software.
It is funny you say that. Linux is actually a corporative product.
Just have a look at who is providing code and funding. Even minority unices like OpenBSD get huge injections of funding from big corporations such as Microsoft.
Oracle used to be the biggest GPL licensor in the world and I think it still is.
--
gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es
... I'd love to, but I'm teaching my ferret to yodel.
Quoting Andeddu to Atroxi at 08-01-20 22:13 <=-
Re: Re: This strange world
By: atroxi to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 04:53 am
Certainly, I'm a 00s kid and I've certainly never have had the chance to experience BBSes in their heyday, I pretty much got introduced straight into the internet around 2007-2008. I do think that there's a certain charm in BBSes, it's more "raw" presentation as compared to the highly graphic filled, attention-grabbing, internet of today.
Still getting my grips into the whole thing but so far I'm enjoying it.
I am a total newbie to this whole scene too. I was completely unaware BBSes existed until around April 2020, which is a little strange as I
was born around the mid-80s. I am here for the charm too... sure BBSes
are quite unweildy, and the way in which the messeges appear in chronological order (in no way related to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging the user to read EVERYTHING) is hilarious...
however I still find the whole experience massively endearing.
Re: Re: This strange world
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm
You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..
Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browser
Nightfox
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which is only on per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.
[[..]] It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my
main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work.
Not to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some
of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right
pain in the ass to get working right.
What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?
Several years ago, I found out that the Descent engine was made open-source, and there's a project called DXX-Rebirth where someone has ported Descent and Descent 2 to modern operating systems. You can copy all the old levels from the original Descent & Descent 2 CD-ROMs and play those on modern operating systems. I was playing through Descent & Descent 2 on Windows 10 for a while.
https://www.dxx-rebirth.com
If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It depends on what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be able to play PC games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using Windows.
Not at all. The purpose isn't archive, it's to avoid needing network bandwidth to pull the whole install down for metered or slow connections. For that, it works exactly as intended.
Only if you're insistent on playing specific games or running specific programs. The majority of the steam library works as easily on Linux as on Windows. And if you're only using a web browser and word processor, there's even fewer reasons to leave yourself locked to Windows.
The biggest reason to change is to avoid being dependent on a singular company that absolutely does NOT have your best interests at heart. That and to make computer use fun again. If you ever get the urge, there's all kinds of things to tweak, customize, or substitute in Linux. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's great for those of us for whom it is.
yeah that's not something i would really want. i really dont like steam. and i dont like the validation shit i get sometimes when i login with what they think is a different computer. it's very annoying.
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with few, if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.
And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL
I was born in 1980 and grew up using computers. So it seems strange to hear someone from around the same time never knew about BBSes.. But at the same time, my dad was a computer person, so I learned a lot about computers at a time when I think many people didn't know much about computers. Computers used to be a lot more niche back then.
I don't think that's quite unique to BBSes. When I started using the internet in 1995, I used to read newsgroups sometimes, and in a newsgroup reader like Forte Agent, messages in newsgroups were often listed the same way. If you are unfamiliar, you could probably find a copy of Forte Agent or another news reader somewhere and connect it to a Synchronet BBS (Synchronet supports the newsgroup protocol) and see how it works. Many desktop email programs used to also support newsgroups, such as Mozilla Thunderbird (though I'm not sure if it still does).
What is it about Steam that you wouldn't really want it? I think Steam can be fairly handy for what it is. I've bought several games from Steam, and it's convenient to be able to download the games rather than having to go out to a store and buy it (though sometimes I do miss buying PC games in a store). Also, Steam has done some significnat work in bringing PC gaming to Linux.
Nightfox
Couple that with the fact that the subject line almost always has nothing to do with what is being discussed, and you're right, you have to read everything to keep up with any given conversation.
Jay
repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.I thought NTFS did that.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer,Windows supports this, but you have to pay for Windows Server.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.I'm trying to remember if Windows Server supports this. But I don't think
I still use Windows, but I get paid for it. Everything at home is Linux.
What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?
Foundation is taking shitloads of cash from corporations that may or may not steer the development of the kernel their way (it probably is). You're to deal with them should you run Windows or Microsoft Office. The Free Software nature of the kernel allows freedom for other people to use and develop their own offshoots of the current mainline kernel should they
Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-
I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.
And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL
I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
you think rip you off less than Microsoft?
Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free /
open-source software.
It is funny you say that. Linux is actually a corporative
product.
Just have a look at who is providing code and funding. Even
minority unices like OpenBSD get huge injections of funding from
big corporations such as Microsoft.
Oracle used to be the biggest GPL licensor in the world and I
think it still is.
web. It's a n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have to have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much that can go wrong.
copy all the old levels from the original Descent & Descent 2 CD-ROMs
and play those on modern operating systems. I was playing through
Descent & Descent 2 on Windows 10 for a while.
https://www.dxx-rebirth.com
I can't imagine there's too big a fanbase left for that game. I've just opened up a YouTube gameplay video of the first level, great nostalia however I think it would be best if I steered clear of that part of my childhood, haha.
Are you into retro titles? I think the only one I'd reallyt like to replay again would be Deus Ex, and that's due to the incredible storyline. It's a shame because these days I am pretty strapped for time, I struggle enough trying to get 4-5 hours in per week playing current-gen games - anything retro would be a massive stretch.
If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It
depends on what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be
able to play PC games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using
Windows.
Therein lies the problem. I ONLY use the PC for games. I've historically used the PC for media, university work, etc... however, gaming is all I use my home computer for now. I have never used any other OS other than Windows at home or work so I am completely ignorant of the alternatives, which is for good reason as I only play games :P.
I didn't have access to the internet until '97. All I ever knew was the world wide web. I had heard of precursors to the internet such as ARPANET however never paid any heed to the history of computer networks until I became interested in vintage computers.
I'll take a look into Forte Agent as you've piqued my interest... I have seen newsgroups on Synchronet, with news appearing much like these messages, if that's what you mean.
What is it about Steam that you wouldn't really want it? I think
Steam can be fairly handy for what it is. I've bought several games
from Steam, and it's convenient to be able to download the games
rather than having to go out to a store and buy it (though sometimes I
do miss buying PC games in a store). Also, Steam has done some
significnat work in bringing PC gaming to Linux.
If you go out to a store and buy games, all you end up with is a Steam code or some other code for a similar client.
That's part of the reason I like it so much. I'd normally skip 90% of active threads on forums, whereas with this I feel like I have to read everything just to remain informed.
Re: Re: This strange world
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 09:21 pm
yeah that's not something i would really want. i really dont like steam. i dont like the validation shit i get sometimes when i login with what th think is a different computer. it's very annoying.
EA Origin, Epic Games, Uplay and Battle.net are no different to Steam in relation to DRM. Signing up to clients is just a hoop you'll have to jump if you're wanting to play modern games.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repa and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at wil
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with fe if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.
That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It' n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much t can go wrong.
I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who boast how easy it is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc. Which happens to be the hard part of installing Linux, mostly.
quite unweildy, and the way in which the messeges appear in
chronological order (in no way related to the topics being discussed
thereby encouraging the user to read EVERYTHING) is hilarious...
I don't think that's quite unique to BBSes. When I started using the internet in 1995, I used to read newsgroups sometimes, and in a
newsgroup reader like Forte Agent, messages in newsgroups were often
listed the same way.
.. I do think that there's a certain charm in BBSes, it's more "raw"
presentation as compared to the highly graphic filled, attention-
grabbing, internet of today.
Still getting my grips into the whole thing but so far I'm enjoying
it.
I am a total newbie to this whole scene too. I was completely unaware
BBSes existed until around April 2020, which is a little strange as I
was born around the mid-80s.
I am here for the charm too... sure BBSes are quite unweildy, and the
way in which the messeges appear in chronological order (in no way
related to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging the user to
read EVERYTHING) is hilarious... however I still find the whole
experience massively endearing.
Has anyone experimented with using the mailing-list format to feed echomail? With some basic filtering on incoming email, it would be pretty easy to park incoming mailing list messages in subfolders.
Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do,
that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
I thought NTFS did that.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
Windows supports this, but you have to pay for Windows Server.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
I'm trying to remember if Windows Server supports this. But I don't
think so.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.
Not to mention that most Linux desktops support the concept of multiple desktops.
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
This was actually the same reason I dropped Windows 2000 and moved to Linux. Never looked back.
I still use Windows, but I get paid for it. Everything at home is
Linux.
Gamgee wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been
lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc...
by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.
I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best
damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which
is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can
do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming,
automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer,
run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between
them at will.
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking
licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine
with few, if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of
it.
Nice list and all true. One other big one I'd add is that you
don't need to worry about virus problems (and install/run/update
antivirus software which slows your computer down).
To paraphrase the OP up there at the top of the post - I don't
know why I (or anyone) would use Windows over Linux. For me,
there are just *NO* reasons to do so.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with few, if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.
That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It's a n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I
think users will have to have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much that can go wrong.
Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repa and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at wil
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with fe if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.
That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It' n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much t can go wrong.
I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is
that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who
boast how easy it is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc.
Which happens to be the hard part of installing Linux, mostly.
Most popular Linux distributions are actually very low maintenance.
Once you set them up you can pretty much forget about them. Then there
is Gentoo and Arch and the like, but if you are running those you
either know what you want out of it, or you are a poser XD
Underminer wrote to Ogg <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:51 am
What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?
There's several, but right off the top of my head Rsync, Cron, Thunar (specifically custom actions - you can do SOME customization that way
in Windows, but it's very limited and an extreme PITA comparatively),
and proper package management. Not to mention the utility found in bash scripting compared to trying to do anything similar with a batch file - and you can easily set said bash scripts up to take variables thrown by your custom action in Thunar (file explorer) to process files or
folders in any number of ways.
There's a multitude of others, but I might have to think a bit on some
of them. Suffice it to say that as I started discovering ways to ease
my common workflows in Linux my life got easier, and Windows felt more cumbersome with each discovery. ---
= Synchronet = The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
On 08-02-20 08:59, Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-
Thinderbird supports Usenet groups nowadays. There was a cool Linux Magazine article about it. The guy who wrote it is very handsome and
has a very special horse smell.
On 08-02-20 08:58, Atroxi wrote to Andeddu <=-ser
@VIA: VERT
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to atroxi on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:13 pm
(in no way related to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging the
to read EVERYTHING)
Yeah, this is exactly the part that I was also struggling a bit. It
takes a while getting used to reading and tracking the discussion down.
I find myself using the tree mode often due to that.
On 08-02-20 09:43, Mauro Veiga wrote to ANDEDDU <=-
I am a total newbie to this whole scene too. I was completely unaware BBSes existed until around April 2020, which is a little strange as I
was born around the mid-80s. I am here for the charm too... sure BBSes
Try to use an offline QWK reader like Multimail or Bluewave. You
download a QWK package and read / write messages offline choosing
to
show by topic or other option.
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part
On 08-02-20 18:38, Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-
I didn't have access to the internet until '97. All I ever knew was the world wide web. I had heard of precursors to the internet such as
ARPANET however never paid any heed to the history of computer networks until I became interested in vintage computers.
Around '99 when I became a more casual user, forums were fairly similar
in format to today -- with different threads, etc... I had never come across anything similar to BBSes on the world wide web.
I'll take a look into Forte Agent as you've piqued my interest... I
have seen newsgroups on Synchronet, with news appearing much like these messages, if that's what you mean.
On 08-02-20 18:43, Andeddu wrote to Warpslide <=-
That's part of the reason I like it so much. I'd normally skip 90% of active threads on forums, whereas with this I feel like I have to read everything just to remain informed.
On 08-02-20 15:04, Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-
I could see that happening sometimes. It seemed like computers were
more niche back then. Not everyone had a computer at home, though computers were becoming more common. My dad was always into computers,
so I grew up using his computers. I got my own hand-me-down computer,
as well as a modem, in 1992, and I started calling BBSes right away. I started my own BBS a couple years later. One time in 1994, I was
telling a friend of mine at school that I run a BBS and he said "What's
a BBS?". I was a little surprised..
I'll take a look into Forte Agent as you've piqued my interest... I have seen newsgroups on Synchronet, with news appearing much like these messages, if that's what you mean.
"Newsgroup" is just a name for a message area set up on a server using
the NNTP protocol. It's much like BBS message forums, except
newsgroups were available on the internet, so they were accessible anywhere (as opposed to BBSes back then, which tended to have a lot of local callers due to being used on phone lines).
On 08-02-20 11:36, Ogg wrote to All <=-
Before newsgroups were commonplace for me, I joined mailing lists.
Sifting through several of them soon became quite tedious though. I
was not versed in sorting emails very well. :(
Today's echos could effectively be a mailing list of their own with a subject line that includes the echotag. But a reply into a mailing
list would need to be massaged to look nicer.
Has anyone experimented with using the mailing-list format to feed echomail? With some basic filtering on incoming email, it would be
pretty easy to park incoming mailing list messages in subfolders.
On 08-03-20 00:21, Underminer wrote to Ogg <=-
@VIA: VERT/UNDRMINE
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 02 2020 11:36 am
Has anyone experimented with using the mailing-list format to feed echomail? With some basic filtering on incoming email, it would be pretty easy to park incoming mailing list messages in subfolders.
Interesting. I've never thought about it, but I do have an email
parsing system I wrote to handle ticketing for business that might do
the trick.... ---
On 08-02-20 13:00, Nightfox wrote to Ogg <=-
I'm not sure what workflows he uses, but in *nix operating systems, the set of GNU command-line tools can be very useful such as grep, sed,
etc. Those are not included in Windows by default, but there are
Windows command-line versions that can be downloaded and installed.
On 08-02-20 08:58, Atroxi wrote to Andeddu <=-
@VIA: VERT
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to atroxi on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:13 pm
(in no way related to the topics being discussed thereby encouraging theser
to read EVERYTHING)
Yeah, this is exactly the part that I was also struggling a bit. It takes a while getting used to reading and tracking the discussion down. I find myself using the tree mode often due to that.
I do that in my head, works better than a threaded reader. :D
... hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY?
I suppose most computer users these days probably haven't installed the OS themselves.
For Linux, I've actually had most Linux installs go fairly smoothly for me, least in recent years. For quite a while, it has seemed like there are are Linux drivers for a lot of common PC hardware, and many Linux distributions have been able to detect pretty much everything in the (few) PCs I've instal it on. I might only have to go download a (proprietary) Nvidia driver or something, but I think many Linux distros work fairly well out of the box. did a fresh re-install of Linux Mint 19.3 on my BBS machine in December and went very smoothly and even detected my PCI Express wifi network card. I'm using the Intel onboard CPU graphics on that machine, and it seems to be working without any additional graphics drivers. I suppose I could check to see if Intel has any specific graphics driver that might offer a performance improvement..
I've since run the update on that PC to update it to Mint 20, and it's worki fairly well.
Nightfox
Yeah, this is exactly the part that I was also struggling a bit. It takes a while getting used to reading and tracking the discussion down. I find myself using the tree mode often due to that.
I was an early adopter. My parents bought a computer so I could do university assignments at home, which I made good use of. Dad tried to learn how to use it, but couldn't get his head around it. That was in 1986. But when I left home in 1991, I built an XT out of scrounged parts. Started BBSing at 300 bps using a friend's dumb modem, until I bought a modem at the end of the hear for a slab of beer. That upgraded me to 1200, and 2400 followed shorly after. :)
Newsgroups were great back then, though BBSs always had a closer community feel about them.
Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware that has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you don't get modules for modern kernels anymore.
Quoting Vk3jed to Mauro Veiga at 08-03-20 19:27 <=-
On 08-02-20 09:43, Mauro Veiga wrote to ANDEDDU <=-
I am a total newbie to this whole scene too. I was completely unaware BBSes existed until around April 2020, which is a little strange as I
was born around the mid-80s. I am here for the charm too... sure BBSes
It's great that BBSs are still being discovered by new people. :)
Try to use an offline QWK reader like Multimail or Bluewave. You
download a QWK package and read / write messages offline choosing
to
show by topic or other option.
I second the offline reader. It's so liberating to be disconnected
from the network to read and post messages, and it's a refreshing
change from sluggish web forums (most are a 200mS+ RTT from here, which really hurts with HTTP(S)).
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part
Collecting taglines is part of the fun of BBSing. My original talgine file had some rather raunchy taglines. :)
Re: Re: Linux
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 04:23 pm
If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It depends what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be able to play P games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using Windows.
Therein lies the problem. I ONLY use the PC for games. I've historically use the PC for media, university work, etc... however, gaming is all I use my ho computer for now. I have never used any other OS other than Windows at home work so I am completely ignorant of the alternatives, which is for good reas as I only play games :P.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repa and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at wil
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with fe if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.
That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It' n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much t can go wrong.
Re: Steam DRM
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sun Aug 02 2020 06:40 pm
What is it about Steam that you wouldn't really want it? I think
Steam can be fairly handy for what it is. I've bought several games
from Steam, and it's convenient to be able to download the games
rather than having to go out to a store and buy it (though sometimes I
do miss buying PC games in a store). Also, Steam has done some
significnat work in bringing PC gaming to Linux.
If you go out to a store and buy games, all you end up with is a Steam code or some other code for a similar client.
Really? I actually haven't bought physical PC games in a while, so I didn't
anything.. A long time ago, I figured the natural progression would be to
Nightfox
Re: Re: Linux
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm
I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, th Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.
1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic r and combining multiple devices into one volume.
2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.
3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at
5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".
6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.
7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.
8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with if any, problems.
9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.
That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those w require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will h have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold y hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not muc can go wrong.
I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who boast how easy i is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc. Which happens to be the hard p of installing Linux, mostly.
Most popular Linux distributions are actually very low maintenance. Once you set them up you can pretty much forget about them. Then there is Gentoo and Arch and the like, but if you are running those you either know what you wan out of it, or you are a poser XD
--
gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es
Games and other software still can be pruchased on DVD, but the titles on the shelf are becoming rarer. In some cases you're buying a box of books or documentation and an activation code. Otherwise it's digital downloads with activation codes emailed to you.
Try to use an offline QWK reader like Multimail or Bluewave. You
download a QWK package and read / write messages offline choosing to
show by topic or other option.
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part of
the BBS culture.
Dark Forces was a first person shooter similar to the engine used by Duke Nukem 3d.
If you're not into hardware intensive gaming, a linux box serves the same purpose a Windows or Mac box does. If you already use Firefox, Chrome, or Libre Office, the learning curve is slight for small changes in function or appearance. Several open source programs are ported to linux, windows and mac, so the platform they rin on means less.
Why seer clear? Also I'm not sure why there would really be less of a fanbase for something like that, unless people just think it's "too old" or something. There's a reason I enjoyed it back then, and I still enjoy it.
Yes, I like retro titles (Descent & Descent 2 being a couple of them..). Sometimes I like playing old games I used to like to play. I always liked games like Civilization, SimCiy, Unreal Tournament, Descent, Descent 2, Warcraft 1 & 2, Command & Conquer, etc.. I don't play games as much as I used to though.
Electronic Arts recently released a "remastered" Command & Conquer collection, which includes the first Command & Conquer and Red Alert, with updated high-resolution (4K) graphics. I bought a copy, and I like it.
It's pretty much just like it used to be, but with the updated graphics, and it's playable on modern versions of Windows. You can also toggle between the old & new graphics if you want to.
Interesting.. I've always used my PC for a lot more than just games. And actually, these days, I don't play PC games nearly as often as I used to..
I also use my computer for keeping track of my finances (I've been using Microsoft Money for that for a long time), software development, photo & video editing, general-purpose things like web browsing, email, etc., and lots of stuff. Many times, I just like using something with a real keyboard too, as well as a bigger screen than what's available with a smartphone or a tablet.
I could see that happening sometimes. It seemed like computers were more niche back then. Not everyone had a computer at home, though computers were becoming more common.
My dad was always into computers, so I grew up using his computers. I got my own hand-me-down computer, as well as a modem, in 1992, and I started calling BBSes right away. I started my own BBS a couple years later. One time in 1994, I was telling a friend of mine at school that I run a BBS and he said "What's a BBS?". I was a little surprised..
Really? I actually haven't bought physical PC games in a while, so I didn't know that's what they were doing. I figured you could probably still buy some PC games on disc or something, but I guess many PC users these days don't have an optical drive or anything.. A long time ago, I figured the natural progression would be to buy PC games (and movies and music) on USB flash drives, but it seems most people have gone the route of downloading them from the internet.
Nightfox
Many old classics are great and don't require you to go through the hassle of dealing with abusive Terms of Service from the game distributor.
It's probably not strange at all. BBS operators have never really waved
the flag to say "Look over here! I exist too!" A listing into telnetbbsguide might be as far as it goes. :(
Messaging live on BBSes has always been awkward (different keyboard
commands from BBS to BBS to navigate the message bases, etc.) An offline method is a user's friend: QWK, nntp, a point program.
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux. I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation wasn't as smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.
In contrast, I always had an interest in communication technology - phones, intercoms, radio, computer networking, and of course, modems and BBSs. Got my ham ticket in 1989, started BBSing in 1991, still do both today, though I did have a 15-20 year break from BBSing, but ham radio continued right through to this day (and is now a godsend during the pandemic). BBSs rekindled my interest in computers, by giving me a practical communication use for them. :)
If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice these days between something that uses a chip from Nvidia or AMD (formerly ATI). think onboard CPU graphics from Intel is probably fairly well supported in Linux though. And I'm not sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graph in them.
Nightfox
I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.
I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft h the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows e become too oppressive.
Internet connections are so quick now that there's no point in physical medi I can download a game faster than it takes to install it on an optical drive still prefer physical games on my consoles though.
Re: Steam DRM
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:10 pm
Many old classics are great and don't require you to go through the hassl of dealing with abusive Terms of Service from the game distributor.
There is no hassle. You sign up for a client in the first instance, agree to the ToS and that's it, you'll never have to agree to it again. When you're logged in, purchase the game of your choosing, download it, and you're done. won't defend DRM however all publishers go through online clients now so eit you sign-up or you'll never get to play modern PC games.
ATI). I think onboard CPU graphics from Intel is probably fairly well supported in Linux though. And I'm not sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:56 am
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux. I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation wasn't as smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.
I just want an easy life. I have no need, no impetus, no requirement to
go looking elsewhere when all my needs are catered for. I don't think I would be able to leave Windows easily even if I wanted to... ASUS use a Republic of Gamers overlay which keeps all my ASUS drivers up-to-date including the BIOS. Losing that would create more work for me. As I am lead to believe, Windows is the far superior platform for AAA gaming as
it is what developers specifically develop their games for. There's a cost/benefit to using either Windows or Linux. A lot of users here use Linux, but they use their PCs for a lot more than simply gaming.
Andeddu wrote to Mauro Veiga <=-
Re: BBSes today
By: Mauro Veiga to ANDEDDU on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:43 am
Try to use an offline QWK reader like Multimail or Bluewave. You
download a QWK package and read / write messages offline choosing to
show by topic or other option.
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part of
the BBS culture.
What's the reason for someone today using a QWK reader as the majority
of BBSers are on Telnet and not utilising dial-up modems? As I
understood, someone in the 80s or 90s would tie up the phone line which would necessitate the use of an offline reader... but this is no longer true. I am just curious :P.
In any case, I am using a vintage '84 Mac to BBS so I don't think there are any compatible offline readers for it.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 06:38 am
Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware t has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you don't get modu for modern kernels anymore.
If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice these t sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.
Nightfox
The virtual keyboard on my iPad Mini 5 is very responsive and almost as good as a physical keyboard. I do 95% of all my browsing either on my iPad or iPhone. The gaming laptop I have has only Steam, EA Origins, UPlay, Battle.NET and Epic Store installed. I don't even have a proper word processor & haven't activated my trial of Microsoft Word. It's a gaming system through and through. All photo taking/editing can be done on my iPhone as the default software is fairly powerful... I have no intrerest in esoteric PC centric software or development of any kind, nor do I have any knowldge or ability in that field.
That's pretty awesome you had a modem back in '92... I remember when I was around 12 running up a massive 70 pound phone bill and being subsequently banned from the internet for the rest of the year.
Internet connections are so quick now that there's no point in physical media. I can download a game faster than it takes to install it on an optical drive. I still prefer physical games on my consoles though.
Intel's onboard graphics usually work very well with Linux and OpenBSD. For the sort of thing I do with a computer, I am very likely to stick with a configuration that features one of those.
AMD/ATI has enough FOSS support for lots of their cards as to consider them a fine choice imo. My main workstation came with an nvidia back in the day and I ended up replacing it with an AMD once nvidia dropped support for it. I am not a GPU hunter, but I was starting to get bad performance with modern video codecs with my old nvidia.
Also, the motherboard has an nvidia chipset that does not play well with OpenBSD. I'd be running OpenBSD instead of Slackware on this thing otherwise.
Both Theo de Raad and Linus have strong opinions about nvidia, no wonder why :-P
If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice
these t sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.
AMD is still adding video to it's cpu's
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse.
In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was
5 years and more ago.
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.
What's the reason for someone today using a QWK reader as the majority
of BBSers are on Telnet and not utilising dial-up modems? As I
understood, someone in the 80s or 90s would tie up the phone line
which would necessitate the use of an offline reader... but this is no longer true. I am just curious :P.
In any case, I am using a vintage '84 Mac to BBS so I don't think
there are any compatible offline readers for it.
Dennisk wrote to Gamgee <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux,
developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all
the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of
choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but
with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and
hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better
software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect
"power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know
Microsoft hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which
is unlikely to ever change, but it's nice to know that there's
something else I can use should Windows ever become too
oppressive.
I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change, but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows ever become too oppressive.
I am using 80s tech in the form of a Mac to BBS on... perhaps once the novelty wares off *and if I am still invested in BBSes* I shall install these QoL programmes onto my PC.
developers specifically develop their games for. There's a cost/benefit to using either Windows or Linux. A lot of users here use Linux, but they use their PCs for a lot more than simply gaming.
I had no idea what Ham Radio was until a week ago. I checked out a video on YouTube and saw a guy send a message on his radio, not dissimilar to a BBS. Interesting stuff!
Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 12:55 am
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.
Yeah, but if you have your home directory on a separate disk or
partition, you're not losing or setting EVERYTHING up with every change
- another nicety over Windows. I don't distro hop myself, but I can understand the appeal for some. I stick to arch on my main rig, and a
mix of Debian and Centos elsewhere for the most part. ---
Underminer
Gamgee wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Gamgee <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux,
developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all
the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of
choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but
with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and
hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better
software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect
"power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.
I have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
won't/can't be locked down. "Power users" don't really need much "support" from their distro of choice, that's why they're power
users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
what else do you need from "the distro"?
Ogg wrote to All <=-
Hello Dennisk!
** On Tuesday 04.08.20 - 01:55, dennisk wrote to Andeddu:
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse.
Maybe that is their joy or hobby. Maybe they have another pc that they don't change.
In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was
5 years and more ago.
I can't imagine changing distros and relearning all the subtleties of
the new distro. I would get more joy by getting totally familiar with
one kind of environment so that I can get on with "work".
I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for touch-typing).
In any case, I am using a vintage '84 Mac to BBS so I don't thinkLook around. Ask around.
there are any compatible offline readers for it.
Alternatively, maybe you can utilize the NNTP approach.
software and hardware support, distros would start to neglectI have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
"power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.
Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
what else do you need from "the distro"?
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
locked down.
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.
I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installationwasn't as
smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then
there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a
printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through
dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.
Yup, Linux is usually easy to install and get running. NOow, installing
it and getting properly adapted to the hardware... you usually need the GPU kernel modules and to account for things such as Optimus, which are real battery killers if left unchecked. Some networks adapters need specific firmware that is not available from the installer, or you get
a gelded version. You get the idea.
Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware
that has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of
modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you
don't get modules for modern kernels anymore.
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
and more ago.
On 08-03-20 03:59, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yeah, this is exactly the part that I was also struggling a bit. It takes a while getting used to reading and tracking the discussion down. I find myself using the tree mode often due to that.
I do that in my head, works better than a threaded reader. :D
On 08-03-20 09:18, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
That's cool.
My dad was a computer guy, so I actually initially learned a lot of
what I know about computers from him. He had told me about using his TRS-80 & such in the late 70s before I was born. I have a photo of me
as a baby with my dad in front of his TRS-80, with his box of 5.25"
floppy disks and acoustic coupler modem.. :) I got my own hand-me-down computer in 1992, along with a 2400 baud modem, which I was thankful
for. I started calling BBSes immediately, and I started running my own BBS in 1994. I used my computer for high school English papers, and I
had upgraded my computer a couple times when I was in high school too.
I got a copy of Microsoft Encarta CD-ROM encyclopedia (1994 or 1995 edition) which I had used as a research source for some papers in high school too.
On 08-03-20 10:56, Mauro Veiga wrote to VK3JED <=-
:-))
Retrocomputing has attracted some people to bbsing. Recently a
user
access my system with a PC-XT with FreeDOS and mTCP. And other
user
never was accessed BBS before.
Yes! And the text screen with ANSI colors is a pleasure for the
eyes.
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part
Collecting taglines is part of the fun of BBSing. My original talgine file had some rather raunchy taglines. :)
Taglines and ASCII signatures are fun. Are part of the great
cultural stuff of BBSs.
... "Engineering is easy, it's reading Klingon that's hard" Scotty
On 08-03-20 19:21, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I had no idea what Ham Radio was until a week ago. I checked out a
video on YouTube and saw a guy send a message on his radio, not
dissimilar to a BBS. Interesting stuff!
On 08-03-20 15:51, Andeddu wrote to Mauro Veiga <=-
What's the reason for someone today using a QWK reader as the majority
of BBSers are on Telnet and not utilising dial-up modems? As I
understood, someone in the 80s or 90s would tie up the phone line which would necessitate the use of an offline reader... but this is no longer true. I am just curious :P.
On 08-03-20 22:19, Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-
I find that a bit unusual, as HAM radio has been around for decades.
HAM radio is one of the types of mobile/walkie-talkie radios you may
have seen some people using in their car/truck, or desk radios you may have seen people using, similar to CB (citizen's band) radio. My dad
is a HAM radio operator though, so it's something I grew up hearing
about. I've thought about getting a HAM radio license, but I just
haven't studied for it or taken the tests yet.
I always used to hear Nvidia had good driver support for Linux, even if it w closed-soruce. I had used Nvidia cards with Linux in the past and had fairl good luck with them. I found ATI cards worked too, with just a couple more steps to install their drivers.
Nightfox
I have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
won't/can't be locked down. "Power users" don't really need much
"support" from their distro of choice, that's why they're power
users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
what else do you need from "the distro"?
Quoting Andeddu to Mauro Veiga at 08-03-20 15:51 <=-
Re: BBSes today
By: Mauro Veiga to ANDEDDU on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:43 am
Try to use an offline QWK reader like Multimail or Bluewave. You
download a QWK package and read / write messages offline choosing to
show by topic or other option.
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part of
the BBS culture.
What's the reason for someone today using a QWK reader as the majority
of BBSers are on Telnet and not utilising dial-up modems? As I
understood, someone in the 80s or 90s would tie up the phone line which would necessitate the use of an offline reader... but this is no longer true. I am just curious :P.
In any case, I am using a vintage '84 Mac to BBS so I don't think
there are any compatible offline readers for it.
Yeah, dealing with dual GPU setups can actually be quite a pain in GNU/Linux used to have this laptop that has a Intel Onboard and an nVidia Geforce chip it. I remember spending days reading stuff up in stackoverflow and the archw to understand how to do application specific switching of the graphics chip. eventually gave up and just disabled the intel onboard one and used the nVid
Re: Steam DRM
By: Moondog to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:45 am
Games and other software still can be pruchased on DVD, but the titles the shelf are becoming rarer. In some cases you're buying a box of book or documentation and an activation code. Otherwise it's digital downloa with activation codes emailed to you.
One thing I've noticed is I think digital downloads can make it difficult to vation codes (which I haven't used), but I didn't get any buyers. I still h tein: Youngblood.)
Nightfox
Re: Re: This strange world
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:58 pm
Dark Forces was a first person shooter similar to the engine used by Duke Nukem 3d.
I always thought it looked a lot rougher than Duke 3D... I think the cold gr interiors made it look a lot less enticing than other FPSes like Duke. I sti recall the cutscenes being of the highest quality though...
Re: Re: Linux
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 01:15 pm
If you're not into hardware intensive gaming, a linux box serves the same purpose a Windows or Mac box does. If you already use Firefox, Chrome, o Libre Office, the learning curve is slight for small changes in function appearance. Several open source programs are ported to linux, windows an mac, so the platform they rin on means less.
I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.
I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft h the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows e become too oppressive.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 03:04 pm
I could see that happening sometimes. It seemed like computers were more niche back then. Not everyone had a computer at home, though computers w becoming more common.
My dad was always into computers, so I grew up using his computers. I go my own hand-me-down computer, as well as a modem, in 1992, and I started calling BBSes right away. I started my own BBS a couple years later. On time in 1994, I was telling a friend of mine at school that I run a BBS a he said "What's a BBS?". I was a little surprised..
My dad always had a computer however those computers were offline terminals. only ever played games... so not much has changed for me since then :P.
That's pretty awesome you had a modem back in '92... I remember when I was around 12 running up a massive 70 pound phone bill and being subsequently banned from the internet for the rest of the year.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm
I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.
I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsof the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever cha but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Window become too oppressive.
You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd be i and Android eating Windows alive if true.
On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actually selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "w for datacenters and containers.
Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant it used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowaday Such as railway companies :-P
--
gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es
Re: Re: Linux
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm
I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Micros hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to e change, but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use sho Windows ever become too oppressive.
There are other lesser-known alternatives too, and there have been in the pa s and environments such as OS/2 (from IBM), GeoWorks, and I think some other led Be, Inc. that made an operating system called BeOS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS
BeOS was originally developed for Be, Inc.'s own computer, the BeBox, which buying NeXT and using NeXT as the basis for OS X.
BeOS was later ported to Intel PCs, and they sold a version for PC compatibl
compete with Windows.
Now, there is an open-source re-creation of BeOS called Haiku, which actuall https://www.haiku-os.org
They have builds of Haiku that are somewhat usable though.
Nightfox
A great way to learn linux without disturbing your main computing rig is to buy a single board computer such as a Raspberry Pi and install the Raspberry Pi OS (formerly Raspbian) or another ARM-based linux distribution, preferrably Debian-based. Manjaro is a bit more complex under the hood (Arch).
A Pi4 can be had for about $50 for the 4gb model. Be sure to add the heatsink kit and a fan, though. Set it up to connect through VNC and access it through VNC viewer installed on your Windows box. There are times when I doing research or looking for data on older DOS programs, and some o fthe abandonware sites looks sketchy. I'd rather browse those sites with Firefox or Chromium on the Pi4 rather than risk my Windows box.
You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd be iOS and Android eating Windows alive if true.
On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actually selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "won" for datacenters and containers.
Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant it used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowadays. Such as railway companies :-P
First worlders are usually surprised when they are told that the consumption of optical emdia, worldwide, is still ON THE RISE. It might surprise you, but most of the population on this ball of mud has no fiber connection to his house.
Sorry, but you are not selling the idea to me.
There are one player games that you play with LAG because they require connectivity to an auth server.
Downloading an extra piece of software (ie a game store client) is a hassle in itself since it is one extra step you have to take, plus you give a lot of power over your game library to a third party. Sometimes, up to the point that you are only able to play the game as long as the third party allows it.
There are distributors taking content away from games you have purchased (for example, music) due to licensing deadlines and the like. The game experience is purposedly diminished by the game distributor.
Games are turning more and more into an experience about the game ecosystem (DLC markets, accomplishments etc) than about the game themselves at times.
As I said, I am so happy with old games that I don't need to sign up to this distribution paradigm to have fun. I don't dislike the idea of game store clients, but I oppose the idea of the gamer ecosystem we have, with the passion of a Doom player who killed a Spiderdemon with a chainsaw.
What is odd is that I use Linux for the same reason! I want an easier life, not to be bothered, and most of all, not have to change the way I do things or interact or be imposed upon. I liked the fact I could install Linux once, and it would run, and I wouldn't have to go through the format/reinstall cycle that Windows (at least back then) needed you to do.
I can't be bothered setting up a fresh system, nor do I want my customisations to disappear or learn a new UI I didn't choose. So with Linux, I can install once, and by my selection of GUI and software, I can stick to my tried and true habits.
Windows is quite decent now. It's stable, I reinstalled Windows once on my
Games tied to one account profile can be a pain. I've heard of buyers of gaming consoles getting burned while buying a game console loaded with games from the previous owner, and none can be accessed under the new owner's profile. Back in the Ipod days I recall people asking me why the music disappeared from the player their friend or sibling downloaded. I yold them it's there, but encrypted so only a certain account can hear it.
Don't forget NetBSD, and it's derivative, NextOS. NextOS was the precursor to OSX
Alternatively, maybe you can utilize the NNTP approach.
Sounds like it might be playing with retro tech that got him into the
BBS Scene. I'm sure there's an offline reader somewhere that might
work, and might be fun to track down, but modern solutions probably
defeat the purpose for him :)
What's the reason for someone today using a QWK reader as the majority of BBSers are on Telnet and not utilising dial-up modems? As I understood,
I think by the time I got online back in '97, the hayday of BBSes had come and gone. I was using the likes of ICQ, mIRC, etc.., for chatting along
On 08-04-20 17:50, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.
This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
as well.
I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
"esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
first place.
On 08-04-20 18:20, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
now.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Re: Re: Linux
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:12 am
A great way to learn linux without disturbing your main computing rig is buy a single board computer such as a Raspberry Pi and install the Raspbe Pi OS (formerly Raspbian) or another ARM-based linux distribution, preferrably Debian-based. Manjaro is a bit more complex under the hood (Arch).
A Pi4 can be had for about $50 for the 4gb model. Be sure to add the heatsink kit and a fan, though. Set it up to connect through VNC and acc it through VNC viewer installed on your Windows box. There are times whe doing research or looking for data on older DOS programs, and some o fth abandonware sites looks sketchy. I'd rather browse those sites with Fire or Chromium on the Pi4 rather than risk my Windows box.
That's what I'd likely do if I were so inclined to venture outwidth the Wind ecosystem. I've heard a lot about Raspberry Pi in the vintage computer world but wasn't really aware of what it actually did until recently. They seem li versitile little machines! I'd rather mess about with one of those and get u to Linux than risk messing up and corrupting my expensive Windows machine.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:18 pm
You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd b iOS and Android eating Windows alive if true.
On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actual selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "won" for datacenters and containers.
Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowadays. Such as railway companies :-P
I absolutely maintain that iOS and Android are killing Windows. I am not sur if Windows are as dominant as they used to be in the corporate world, but they're taking losses everywhere else. Their Windows Phone OS bombed hard, a I am glad of it.
Re: Steam DRM
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:25 pm
First worlders are usually surprised when they are told that the consumpt of optical emdia, worldwide, is still ON THE RISE. It might surprise you, but most of the population on this ball of mud has no fiber connection to his house.
I understand where you're coming from, but what I have will soon be availabl to everyone. I was able to download a 37GB game earlier today in around 40 minutes -- that's less time than it takes for my PS4 to install a game from Blu-Ray! 5G absolutely dwarfs those download speeds which is pretty crazy if you think about it.
Re: Steam DRM
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:39 pm
Sorry, but you are not selling the idea to me.
There are one player games that you play with LAG because they require connectivity to an auth server.
Downloading an extra piece of software (ie a game store client) is a hass in itself since it is one extra step you have to take, plus you give a lo of power over your game library to a third party. Sometimes, up to the po that you are only able to play the game as long as the third party allows it.
There are distributors taking content away from games you have purchased (for example, music) due to licensing deadlines and the like. The game experience is purposedly diminished by the game distributor.
Games are turning more and more into an experience about the game ecosyst (DLC markets, accomplishments etc) than about the game themselves at time
As I said, I am so happy with old games that I don't need to sign up to t distribution paradigm to have fun. I don't dislike the idea of game store clients, but I oppose the idea of the gamer ecosystem we have, with the passion of a Doom player who killed a Spiderdemon with a chainsaw.
I admire your dedication to your principles. I, however, refuse to miss out all the fine graphical experiences the current, and next-generation, have to offer. I disagree with the current paradigm which essentially results in the consumer purchasing and, for all intents and purposes, renting the games the buy. Once the Steam servers shut down, I will have lost my entire gaming library. That means I never really "owned" them in the first place.
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
locked down.
I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.
I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.
The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.
This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
as well.
I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation
wasn't as
smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then
there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a
printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through
dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.
I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
"esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
first place.
Dealing with it is incredibly frustrating. And don't even get me
started with Windows Updates. :'-(
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
and more ago.
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
now.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Quoting Vk3jed to Mauro Veiga at 08-04-20 20:50 <=-
On 08-03-20 10:56, Mauro Veiga wrote to VK3JED <=-
:-))
Retrocomputing has attracted some people to bbsing. Recently a
user
access my system with a PC-XT with FreeDOS and mTCP. And other
user
never was accessed BBS before.
Urk, your reader seems to put hard CRs into your message text. :/ But yeah, that's cool. :) Would be more points for using a modem emulator
and a serial link. :)
Yes! And the text screen with ANSI colors is a pleasure for the
eyes.
It is a new step in the BBS experience where you can develop ASCII
signatures and tagline files. Things that have always been part
Taglines were always a big part of my BBSing. :)
... "Engineering is easy, it's reading Klingon that's hard" Scotty
Haha yep - ST IV - The Voyage Home. :)
Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I got a copy of Microsoft Encarta CD-ROM encyclopedia (1994 or 1995 edition) which I had used as a research source for some papers in high school too.
Andeddu wrote to Mauro Veiga <=-
What's the reason for someone today using a QWK reader as the majority
of BBSers are on Telnet and not utilising dial-up modems? As I
understood, someone in the 80s or 90s would tie up the phone line which would necessitate the use of an offline reader... but this is no longer true. I am just curious :P.
it nicer to use Multimail. Lastly, if I stop and walk away from the computer, I don't get disconnected. Most BBS's have short session timeouts, so you get disconnected if you are not constantly typing away.
I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for touch-typing).
I think it's different in different parts of the world, but around that time when I got my PC, local calls were free. I rarely made any long-distance calls, so I usually didn't increase the phone bill. I was grateful that my parents got a 2nd phone line for me to use with my computer & modem so I wouldn't tie up the main phone line (also, sometimes they said my modem would apparently answer the phone occasionally when it wasn't supposed to..). And when I got my own phone line for my PC, I decided to make good use of it and run my own BBS.
I originally figured the natural progression would probably be to buy games, movies, and music on USB flash drives. But it seems that didn't happen.. Not everyone has a fast internet connection though.
Heh. It became too oppressive a couple of decades ago, IMHO.
There are other lesser-known alternatives too, and there have been in the past too. In the mid-late 80s, there were also other computer systems on the market competing with PCs & Windows, such as the Amiga, Mac (of course), and other PC operating systems and environments such as OS/2 (from IBM), GeoWorks, and I think some others too. Many of those went away in the 90s due to Microsoft's dominance with Windows. But also, the 90s is when Linux started up. In the 90s, there was also another company called Be, Inc. that made an operating system called BeOS:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS
BeOS was originally developed for Be, Inc.'s own computer, the BeBox, which used a PowerPC processor. Be, Inc. was started by Jean-Louis Gasse, who used to work at Apple. I heard BeOS was a contender to replace the classic MacOS, before Apple ended up buying NeXT and using NeXT as the basis for OS X.
BeOS was later ported to Intel PCs, and they sold a version for PC compatibles using Intel and AMD processors. I bought a copy of BeOS 4.5 around 1998 or 1999; I actually thought it looked promising, and it had great multi-tasking. But it still couldn't compete with Windows.
One of the early ones was Vivid Media. I had a bunch of friends who
worked there, and this was early on in the internet era, when people
had 1 work address and most people didn't have internet at home (or
they had dialup)
People who left the company still kept their web pages at http://www.vivid.com/~username and their email addresses. They
underwent a hostile takeover by one of their competitors, who promptly dumped the company name and the domain name.
Vivid Studios, the porn site, took over vivid.com, and people's legacy
web sites redirected to the home page of a porn company.
Aside: we forget how early porn was on the internet - long before we
were. My wife worked at a webcasting company from 1999 to 2016. They started off as a streaming news site with their own newsroom and journalists, and in the early days most of the engineering talent
came from the "adult entertainment" sector.
I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One
major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for
touch-typing).
I think it's hit or miss for our generation. Seeing the younger generation using virtual keyboards, you'd think they were on physical keyboard such is the speed they're able to type.
I am in love with this 1984 Apple keyboard I am using right now, it's feels even more tacticle than my Cherry MX mechanical keyboard.
I don't think we ever had local calls for free over here. I doubt I would have noticed anyway as I was never involved in any chat community around that time & I doubt there were any local gaming servers I could log into as online gaming back then was still in its infancy.
There are still post codes in the UK which don't appear to have access to super fast internet. I fear a little for those people come the release of next-gen consoles. I have seen game patches hitting over 100gb in titles such as Gears of War 4 and Call of Duty (2020) which is pretty obscene. I don't think we should just disregard people who do not have access to high-speed internet.
Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to lear this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments.
You can do a lot more than gaming with Windows too.. Part of it depends on what environment you're comfortable with. Some people just don't really trust Microsoft and want to run something other than Windows.
I find that a bit unusual, as HAM radio has been around for decades. HAM radio is one of the types of mobile/walkie-talkie radios you may have seen some people using in their car/truck, or desk radios you may have seen people using, similar to CB (citizen's band) radio. My dad is a HAM radio operator though, so it's something I grew up hearing about. I've thought about getting a HAM radio license, but I just haven't studied for it or taken the tests yet.
Look for Youtube videos on how to install Windows subsytem for Linux (WSL2), then install a linux distro such as Ubuntu or Kali from the Windows app store. Follow the instructions in the video on how to access a linux desktop running on Windows without a VM. You would access it like you were performing a remote desktop session.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *breathes in* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems. That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments it's laughably horrible. Then there's the frequency with which auto updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time. Once again, fine for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random event is higher than it has been since Vista.
Look at all those ads for Hughesnet and notice how Dish and DirecTV still have a large customer base. Due to the size of the US, there are more locations than people realize that have limited or no choices for wired or wi reless broadband.
Due to DRM, there may be cultural works that may not be easily recoverable in the future without preseverationists creating workarounds to access r bypass oolder protection scheme. Imagine a library full of books, and no one can access them because the guy who owned the key threw it away when he retired.
Yeah, porn has been around since the BBS days..
Nightfox
It wasn't just chat & games. In those days, I spent a lot of time looking for games, PC utilities, and other files to download from BBSes, and at 2400 baud, a ~200KB file could take about 15-20 minutes to download. And
I suppose you could do pretty much anything with Windows... which is why it's so popular in the business/corporate world. As a gamer I have no issues with Windows, all my nVidia drivers are fully compatible and everything just works. I am not an advanced user of computers, I know more than probably 90% of the population, but that's not hard. I rely on Windows for a hassle free experience... everything is made to work on this platform so I can't see myself going anywhere else in the immediate future.
I have a strong belief that Ham radio is more of an American thing. I had previously never heard of it & nobody I have ever spoke to has mentioned it. I don't know anyone, perhaps outside of the trucking community who uses one... I really don't think it's a THING in the UK. It's certainly not mainstream, which is a shame as it looks like a useful tool.
nope, that was what many call 'the third wave'
that's when it was super popular with new blood for a short while before it fizzed out.
I find that a bit unusual, as HAM radio has been around for decades.I have a strong belief that Ham radio is more of an American thing. I had previously never heard of it & nobody I have ever spoke to has mentioned
I've also previously had Windows auto-update my graphics drivers too with no warning. That's the kind of shit that could potentially drive people like me away from the platform. There should be an overlap period of a week or so allowing the user to update in their own time... which, in the example you've provided, is particularly important for businesses.
nope, that was what many call 'the third wave'Perhaps.. I didn't notice much of a surge at the time. I think my BBS usage was in steady decline until I eventually decided to take it offline in 2000 due to significant lack of callers.
that's when it was super popular with new blood for a short while
I don't know how prevalent it is comparatively in the UK, but I think the bigger reason most of us folks feel like HAM is something most people should be aware of is that there used to be a reasonable crossover of HAMs and BBS users, so many of us have been very exposed to it being a thing whether we took up a radio or not.
Not just for convenience of update times either, but previous to W10's crap update system I used to test updates on one system in an office or establishment to make sure nothing important was going to break before pushing it out to all the other workstations. Ask any reputable dev or IT pro what they think about pushing updates into a live production environment without validating them... Especially given that MS laid off most of it's QA testing dept for said updates. Good grief.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 01:16 am
it nicer to use Multimail. Lastly, if I stop and walk away from the computer, I don't get disconnected. Most BBS's have short session timeouts, so you get disconnected if you are not constantly typing away.
Ah, I see. I have had this happen before a number of times. I go away
to do a quick job and return to see the words "NO CARRIER". They sure don't give you much time to idle. This should probably be extended as
most BBSes have 10+ nodes.
Warpslide wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05 Aug 2020, Dennisk said the following...
Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to lear this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments.
Someone needs to send this statement to the Microsoft Office team. I
get that some things change between versions, which used to be every couple of years: Office 2007, Office 2013, Office 2016 & now Office
2019.
As/if you upgrade you have to find where they moved certain items on
the ribbon and then you eventually get used to it.
We use Office 365 at work and they constantly changing things. Most recently in Outlook they moved the search bar from where it always was
up into the title bar of the window. So now if I want to grab the
window to drag it to my other monitor I have to make sure to not click
in the search bar. Also now when searching it'll expand to cover everything under it, so you know, if you want to read something you're searching for, sorry, that doesn't work anymore.
Another small annoyance is they've "streamlined" the look. Current
day's email only show the time and anything before that only shows the date. Want to know the time an email was sent yesterday? Can't just
get that at a glance anymore, you have double click the message to open
it in a new window for that information.
The problem is, I've just gotten used to how this is now (there's no
way to roll back or stop updates) - Next month they may move the search bar again or being the time back. Who knows?
Jay
Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Wed Aug 05 2020 02:59 pm
I don't think we ever had local calls for free over here. I doubt I would have noticed anyway as I was never involved in any chat community around that time & I doubt there were any local gaming servers I could log into as online gaming back then was still in its infancy.
It wasn't just chat & games. In those days, I spent a lot of time
looking for games, PC utilities, and other files to download from
BBSes, and at 2400 baud, a ~200KB file could take about 15-20 minutes
to download. And of course it would take even longer if you had a
slower connection. I downloaded files quite a bit back then. I used
chat on some BBSes sometimes, but I actually never got much into BBS
door games back then.
Nightfox
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Tue Aug 04 2020 07:58 am
One of the early ones was Vivid Media. I had a bunch of friends who worked there, and this was early on in the internet era, when people had 1 work address and most people didn't have internet at home (or they had dialup)
People who left the company still kept their web pages at http://www.vivid.com/~username and their email addresses. They underwent a hostile takeover by one of their competitors, who promptly dumped the company name and the domain name.
Vivid Studios, the porn site, took over vivid.com, and people's legacy web sites redirected to the home page of a porn company.
hah.. That's funny.
Aside: we forget how early porn was on the internet - long before we were. My wife worked at a webcasting company from 1999 to 2016. They started off as a streaming news site with their own newsroom and journalists, and in the early days most of the engineering talent
came from the "adult entertainment" sector.
Yeah, porn has been around since the BBS days..
Nightfox
consumption of optical emdia, worldwide, is still ON THE RISE. It might surprise you, but most of the population on this ball of mud has no fiber connection to his house.
Besides, I love stashing the DVDs that come with Linux Magazine. When I need to fix something it is much faster to grab a DVD from the DVD pile than to download a rescue system. Specially if the machine you'd use for
Re: Steam DRM
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 05:19 pm
Internet connections are so quick now that there's no point in
physical media. I can download a game faster than it takes to
install it on an optical drive. I still prefer physical games on my
consoles though.
I originally figured the natural progression would probably be to buy games, movies, and music on USB flash drives. But it seems that didn't happen.. Not everyone has a fast internet connection though.
Nightfox
Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-
On 08-04-20 17:50, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.
Yeah, people bang on about this interface or that, but my primary interface is Bash, usually over SSH, because most of my Linux systems
are running as servers. I do have one desktop, which is running
Cinnamon on Mint, which I like as an interface. And I have a netbook running Lubuntu
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.
If not harder. Linux at least is honest about its complexity. Windows tries to hide the complexity, and that makes diving under the hoof
harder at times.
This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
as well.
Biggest challenge I've had is installing newer software on an older distro, but I solve that one, by installing the dependency that was too old from source by hand, using a newer version. Then the software I
waas installing compiled properly. :)
But that's no different in the Windows world, where newer software
won't install on older versions of Windows - these days, usually
Windows 7 is the cut off, but there is software that will only install
on Windows 10. Difference is, that unlike my old Linux system, you
can't upgrade the parts that are "too old" individually under Windows
as easily, and generally compiling from source isn't an option.
I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
"esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
first place.
One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
are on Windows.
Just different ways of doing things.
... On a clear disk you can seek forever.
Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-
On 08-04-20 18:20, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
now.
For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.
Some business oriented applications are built for a Red Hat style
distro, and will run on RHEL or CentOS without any dramas, possibly
Fedora with some massaging.
I use mostly Debian nowadays, with some CentOS, Lubuntu and Mint.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Unless I have a compelling reason to try a particular distro, I'll use what best fit my operational needs.
... The exception also declares the rule
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
locked down.
I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.
I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.
The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)
I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use
it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled
by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window
decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as
does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.
In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS,
developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be
written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The
simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly,
even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I*
get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on
your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look,
but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No
one is in charge.
In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use
case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which
can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead
ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on
standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.
I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people
who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.
The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.
This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
as well.
I did break my system once when I started using it, back before
journaling filesystems existed, and a hard shutdown caused files to be lost that I didn't know how to replace. But that was aaaggges ago. I haven't had since then any wierd problems that I couldnt' resolve, and
the few times I did, it was something not unexpected (ie, I made a
system change that didn't quite work), or some niggly problem with specific software during an update that I could resolve.
The other thing I liked, compared to Windows, is no performance degradation. None. I don't know about now, but Windows would age, get slower, more buggy. I NEVER had Linux do that, no matter what software
I installed.
I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installationwasn't as
smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then
there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a
printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through
dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.
I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
"esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
first place.
Dealing with it is incredibly frustrating. And don't even get me
started with Windows Updates. :'-(
Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to learn this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments. My daughter is familiar with KDE Plasma, so to her, that is easy.
Should would be JUST as comfortable with KDE 3, I'm sure, if that was still current. If they were to change it, because of some new fad or idea, she would get frustrated. There is no problem with it now. I
think his focus on mechanics and UI design, and redesigining things all the time is largely pointless, and mostly a self-indulgent wank. Most
UI redesigns turn out to just be a PITA.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
and more ago.
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
now.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
of the repository.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
That seems to be true. However I'm not sure I see the big connection between BBSing and HAM radio.
You can use enterprise licensing and domains to control updates, which does very little for SOHO... I don't like how forceful updates are in a
On 08-05-20 09:58, Mauro Veiga wrote to VK3JED <=-
Yes! The hard CRs probably was the Boxer/DOS 7.0b. A great
editor
that match fine with Bluewave.
Yes! And the text screen with ANSI colors is a pleasure for the
eyes.
... "Engineering is easy, it's reading Klingon that's hard" Scotty
Haha yep - ST IV - The Voyage Home. :)
Great movie.
Klingon Bird of Prey - B'Rel Class
_ ________
_,-'|`||||||||_\___ _,-,_
| /_`-'||||||||' \\-____/_ __o`-,
|[__<|_|||||||| -----.______(=====/
|_\ \------'\____/--------\_,-'
`\`. \-'
\ \ \
`\`. \`
\ `-.__\
\______\
| ___\
\(___======][]
`--"
24
MeSSaGe SiTTeR 1.00 - Full Version
Live Long and Prosper
... Captain, a Klingon does NOT play Tetris.
On 08-06-20 09:14, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
On the other hand, mine's the exact reverse, haha! There are instances that I'm using older or more esoteric software and as such are often
not provided in the package repositories, I usually end up compiling
those ones from source if I can't find an .appimage or similar for it.
I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
"esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
first place.
One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
are on Windows.
Just different ways of doing things.
Yeah, I agree. It's basically just picking your own poison, haha! :-)
On 08-06-20 09:19, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.
Oh wow. I've been thinking of getting into ham radio recently, just because of this whole pandemic thing is making me a bit looney at
times. It's great that there's good support for those in GNU/Linux.
It's exactly this, isn't it? We use what fits the best for our needs. Though I do think there's also pleasure in just figuring how stuff
works in different systems, if you have nothing better to do that is.
:-P
... The exception also declares the rule
... Not enough mail? Here, let me help...
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
locked down.
I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.
I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.
The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)
I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use
it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled
by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window
decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as
does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.
In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS,
developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be
written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The
simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly,
even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I*
get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on
your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look,
but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No
one is in charge.
In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use
case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which
can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead
ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on
standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the
people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly
being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is
being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for
such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...?
I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and
some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university
stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche.
Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same
amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.
Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly,
for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying
systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their
system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.
I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how
active things are in the development side of things and gives any
coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally,
I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution
should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro"
rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps
and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.
I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people
who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.
Are they? Well, I don't write software for a living but if that's the
case then they're definitely using a boat to travel the road.
This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
as well.
This is true. A friend of mine always had problems with Windows over
time, he would install Windows 10 and after two years it would slow
down to a crawl and would randomly throw errors at him which would then prompt him to reset his system. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah, UI redesigns are a massive PITA from a user's standpoint.
Suddenly things that you're used to aren't what they are. I really
liked the old GNOME but then they completely went 180 with GNOME 3.
Though it's great that MATE exists, users can't just rely to some concerned developer to fork the older, more desirable, version and maintain it. The lead developers themselves shouldn't just suddenly
depart to their previous design language and expect everyone to use
their system. To be honest, that's part of the reason why I just used
CLI applications and stuck with a simple window manager, things are
more consistent and are much more customizable; though of course window managers are not for everyone.
I think part of what I said earlier has to do with inertia that you've talked about in the other thread. Windows just has this decades long inertia to back it up and people who grew up using it wouldn't just
give it up easily for something else. So yeah, I agree, usability comes with familiarity but Windows has so much familiarity that even if it is technically subpar compared to the other operating systems that people still find it usable.
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
and more ago.
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
now.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
of the repository.
In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies
with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that
they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo
and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint
but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works.
Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which
some might care about.
Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman
has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.
I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple
and fast.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Underminer to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 04:53 pm
I don't know how prevalent it is comparatively in the UK, but I think the bigger reason most of us folks feel like HAM is something most people should be aware o
is that there used to be a reasonable crossover of HAMs and BBS users, so many of us have been very exposed to it being a thing whether we took up a radio or not
That seems to be true. However I'm not sure I see the big connection between BBSing and HAM radio.
Nightfox
they actually still have 'linux magazine' that comes with dvds?
that blows my mind
Yeah, in my neck of the woods ~98-2001 was a completely dead period, then there was a huge surge around 2001-2005 when telnet access was the hot thing and Mt32 was nicely portable and something you could just chuck at a
I didn't chat much on BBS's back then, and didn't really message much either. One reason was that some were single line, so there was no one to chat to. The other was that being at home, I had to be wary of hogging the
I did used to chat with a friend via modem, but not on a BBS. We would dial direct using Telix.
consumption of optical emdia, worldwide, is still ON THE RISE. It
might surprise you, but most of the population on this ball of mud
has no fiber connection to his house.
I dont think many people actually have fiber. i have to use spectrum which is only like 10MB down and 2MB up. sucks.
Re: Steam DRM
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 11:33 pm
Look at all those ads for Hughesnet and notice how Dish and DirecTV still have a large customer base. Due to the size of the US, there are more locations than people realize that have limited or no choices for wired wi reless broadband.
I take it that the high-density areas in the US are well networked? It's the same here in the UK... I know there are still people on dial-up in the remot Scottish Highlands.
Re: Steam DRM
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 11:38 pm
Due to DRM, there may be cultural works that may not be easily recoverabl in the future without preseverationists creating workarounds to access r bypass oolder protection scheme. Imagine a library full of books, and no one can access them because the guy who owned the key threw it away when retired.
It's a shame because a lot of the source codes for these games are going to missing once devs shutdown, and without cooperation from Steam, many of thes games are going to be lost forever. That's why I support Good Old Games whenever I can. They do sell SOME modern games DRM free.
MT32? I'm thinking of the Roland MT-32 music synthesizer module, but I'm not sure that's what you mean.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MT-32
This may go beyond gaming and cover films and written literature that may be locked away on encrypted devices.
Nightfox wrote to Dennisk <=-Unfortunately not possible with a 2400 modem, so we resorted to direct serial links. I think there was a program which make Doom support it, but it was too laggy from memory. This was a long, long time ago.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:54 am
I didn't chat much on BBS's back then, and didn't really message much either. One reason was that some were single line, so there was no one to chat to. The other was that being at home, I had to be wary of hogging the
There were a couple multi-line BBSes in my area that had active
multi-node chat sections, and I used those sometimes. There were only
a few of those, but it seemed those tended to be MajorBBS boards in my area.
I did used to chat with a friend via modem, but not on a BBS. We would dial direct using Telix.
I did that sometimes too. There was one person who used to use my BBS around 1995 and sometimes we'd play Doom or Doom 2 over the modem with each other.
I dont think many people actually have fiber. i have to use
spectrum which is only like 10MB down and 2MB up. sucks.
Verizon set up a fiber network in my area a long time ago that they called Fios. Then Frontier bought out Verizon's internet service about 10 years ago. I've been using Frontier fiber since I bought my house about 5 years ago. Now, Frontier's internet here was recently bought out by Ziply Fiber. When that happened, my internet service started dropping out at random times. After a few phone calls, I finally got ahold of a customer support person at Ziply who sent a tech out to my house. He replaced the ONT box
Sorry, Mtel32 not MT32. Brain fart. It was a really ubiquitous terminal program for a while, and really easy to distribute and run since all it needed was the .exe, but if you included a dialing directory or config in the same directory it would read it.
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
locked down.
I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.
I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.
The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)
I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use
it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled
by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window
decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as
does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.
In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS,
developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be
written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The
simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly,
even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I*
get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on
your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look,
but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No
one is in charge.
In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use
case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which
can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead
ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on
standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the
people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly
being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is
being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for
such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...?
I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and
some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university
stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche.
Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same
amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.
Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly,
for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying
systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their
system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.
I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how
active things are in the development side of things and gives any
coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally,
I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution
should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro"
rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps
and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)
There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to
use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way
I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing
workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the
distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can
always change the options).
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.
This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.
I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people
who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.
Are they? Well, I don't write software for a living but if that's the
case then they're definitely using a boat to travel the road.
I don't know too many people, but I have seen it.
This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
as well.
This is true. A friend of mine always had problems with Windows over
time, he would install Windows 10 and after two years it would slow
down to a crawl and would randomly throw errors at him which would then prompt him to reset his system. Rinse and repeat.
Does Windows 10 still have this problem? I would have thought they
would have solved this by now. Two years is a pretty good lifespan for
a Windows install.
Yeah, UI redesigns are a massive PITA from a user's standpoint.
Suddenly things that you're used to aren't what they are. I really
liked the old GNOME but then they completely went 180 with GNOME 3.
Though it's great that MATE exists, users can't just rely to some concerned developer to fork the older, more desirable, version and maintain it. The lead developers themselves shouldn't just suddenly
depart to their previous design language and expect everyone to use
their system. To be honest, that's part of the reason why I just used
CLI applications and stuck with a simple window manager, things are
more consistent and are much more customizable; though of course window managers are not for everyone.
It would have been better to make Gnome 3 another DE, and keep Gnome,
or somehow manage the transition so that if you were using Gnome 2, and the next update put Gnome 3, you were booted into MATE, with your Gnome
2 settings. Maybe the distros could have made that happen.
I think part of what I said earlier has to do with inertia that you've talked about in the other thread. Windows just has this decades long inertia to back it up and people who grew up using it wouldn't just
give it up easily for something else. So yeah, I agree, usability comes with familiarity but Windows has so much familiarity that even if it is technically subpar compared to the other operating systems that people still find it usable.
That and people use it at work, because it is always the safer option, professionally speaking, to use Windows.
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
and more ago.
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
now.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
of the repository.
In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies
with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that
they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo
and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint
but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works.
Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which
some might care about.
Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman
has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.
I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple
and fast.
OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the
"default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard
software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do.
Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most
of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the
same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-
On 08-06-20 09:14, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
On the other hand, mine's the exact reverse, haha! There are instances that I'm using older or more esoteric software and as such are often
not provided in the package repositories, I usually end up compiling
those ones from source if I can't find an .appimage or similar for it.
Sometimes compiling older software on a modern distro can be a
challenge too! :) I have struck that one myself.
I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
"esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
first place.
Yes, a lot of Windows is familiarity. I'm equally well versed in both Windows and Linux - both are equally familiar, as I have been running Linux since 1995, Windows only a few years earlier.
One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
are on Windows.
Just different ways of doing things.
Yeah, I agree. It's basically just picking your own poison, haha! :-)
True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.
Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-
On 08-06-20 09:19, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.
Oh wow. I've been thinking of getting into ham radio recently, just because of this whole pandemic thing is making me a bit looney at
times. It's great that there's good support for those in GNU/Linux.
It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
survival. :)
It's exactly this, isn't it? We use what fits the best for our needs. Though I do think there's also pleasure in just figuring how stuff
works in different systems, if you have nothing better to do that is.
:-P
Haha I certainly don't have time, plenty of things on the go here.
While I find the concept of Gentoo interesting, I can't see it working
for me. :)
... The exception also declares the rule
... Not enough mail? Here, let me help...
Haha I bet! :D
... Virtue is a relative term. Spock, Friday's Child, stardate 3499.1.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
= Synchronet = Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia.
freeway.apana.org.au
On 08-07-20 11:13, Dennisk wrote to Nightfox <=-
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss
most about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files directly.
It's odd how in the era of always on broadband, we can't really do this easily, and resort to dropbox, etc.
On 08-07-20 15:41, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.
What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.
On 08-07-20 15:43, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
survival. :)
Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes
me sad.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-07-20 11:13, Dennisk wrote to Nightfox <=-
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss
most about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files directly.
It's odd how in the era of always on broadband, we can't really do this easily, and resort to dropbox, etc.
That was fun in those days. It's theoretically possible, but no one's bothered to write the applications.
Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for
you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out
of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove all of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since
you have your own workflow jive, it would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just be adding stuff into it.
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-
On 08-07-20 15:41, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.
What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.
I have had distros install an old version of Firefox, and had to
install a copy in my user profile from the Mozilla site, so it would update using its own mechanisms.
Quoting Vk3jed to Mauro Veiga at 08-06-20 19:36 <=-
Yes! The hard CRs probably was the Boxer/DOS 7.0b. A great
editor
that match fine with Bluewave.
Except for the bloody hard CRs, which cause the above when quoted. :/
Klingon Bird of Prey - B'Rel Class
_ ________
_,-'|`||||||||_\___ _,-,_
| /_`-'||||||||' \\-____/_ __o`-,
|[__<|_|||||||| -----.______(=====/
|_\ \------'\____/--------\_,-'
`\`. \-'
\ \ \
`\`. \`
\ `-.__\
\______\
| ___\
\(___======][]
`--"
24
MeSSaGe SiTTeR 1.00 - Full Version
Live Long and Prosper
Nice! :) Let's see if it survives quoting. :)
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss most about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files directly. It's odd how in the era of always on broadband, we can't really do this easily, and resort to dropbox, etc.
i believe it's how they all got together and negotiated. in my area we will never have fiber because of the deals verizon cut with att and charter for cellphone rights.
so in the uppermidwest usa we are stuck with cable or ATT
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss
most about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files
directly. It's odd how in the era of always on broadband, we can't
really do this easily, and resort to dropbox, etc.
That was fun in those days. It's theoretically possible, but no one's bothered to write the applications.
That was fun in those days. It's theoretically possible, but no
one's bothered to write the applications.
The modern version of that are instant messengers. You can chat with someone in real time, and send/receive files directly.
They've been around for 20+ years.
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.
I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.
I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.
The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)
I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.
In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS, developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly, even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I* get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look, but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No one is in charge.
In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.
Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.
I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)
There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).
Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.
... Whatever happens, happens.
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.
I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years now.
Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)
Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.
In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.
Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.
I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.
OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.
Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove a of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just b adding stuff into it.
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually deve your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
... Whatever happens, happens.
On 08-07-20 11:13, Dennisk wrote to Nightfox <=-
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss most about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files directly. It's odd how in the era of always on broadband, we can't really do this easily, and resort to dropbox, etc.
That was fun in those days. It's theoretically possible, but no one's bothe to write the applications.
... Diplomacy gets you out of what tact would have prevented.
Many of the popular instant messengers are either gone or stripped of many of their features though. MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, and I think AOL Messenger are no longer working, and ICQ is not nearly what it used to be. There are things like Google Hangouts, but I'm not sure if they allow direct file transfers.
MSN Messenger is basically Skype now, that allows direct file transfers.
Believe it or not, Facebook Messenger will allow you to send a file as well, although it's really geared towards images, I believe you can still send a zip file.
Jabber is an Open Source instant messaging system, and does require a central server (kind of like a BBS, as it's mostly independent), but you can do file transfers with that as well.
Google Hangouts are going away Soon<tm>. I mean, technically it's transitioning to "Google Meet" or something, geared towards business clients.
That said, things like Slack, Discord, HipChat, IRC, etc. allow one-on-one private messages with file transfers as well.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Fri Aug 07 2020 11:13 am
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss mos about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files directly. It's od how in the era of always on broadband, we can't really do this easily, resort to dropbox, etc.
It always seemed to me that you could send files directly with instant messg programs like Yahoo Messgnger, MSN Messenger, ICQ, etc., but now it seems li most of those are gone.. But these days, there is Google Hangouts, and Pidg Messenger is still around. You should still be able to chat with people usi such software and send files that way, I'd think. Though I think some chat software these days will upload your file to a temporary server location unt the recipient is online to download it.
Nightfox
It always seemed to me that you could send files directly with instant
messg programs like Yahoo Messgnger, MSN Messenger, ICQ, etc., but now
it seems li most of those are gone.. But these days, there is Google
Don't forget IRC. AFAIK it allowed direct transfer between IRC clients.
Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-
It always seemed to me that you could send files directly with instant messg programs like Yahoo Messgnger, MSN Messenger, ICQ, etc., but now it seems li most of those are gone.. But these days, there is Google Hangouts, and Pidg Messenger is still around. You should still be able to chat with people usi such software and send files that way, I'd think. Though I think some chat software these days will upload your file to a temporary server location unt the recipient is online to download it.
Don't forget IRC. AFAIK it allowed direct transfer between IRC
clients.
Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-
There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
streamline the process (and learn even more)
Yep. Although I've thought about switching to Linux, I'm still using Windows as my main OS right now because I have things set up that way
now and things are w orking okay for me.
Don't forget IRC. AFAIK it allowed direct transfer between IRC clients.
I agree. Some areas just don't have high-speed internet, but it seems most people assume everyone has high-speed internet these days.
I don't think it's true that it's mainly an American thing.. My dad is a HAM radio operator, and I've known other HAM radio people, who have talked to people all around the world on HAM radio. I remember my dad mentioning there used to be people in Australia that he'd talk to on HAM radio, and other places too. That was one of the cool things about it - There are HAM radio repeaters that will forward your signal all over the place.
HAM radio certainly doesn't seem to be nearly as popular as it used to be, which may be why you haven't heard about it. But it's a worldwide thing. I actually don't know a whole lot of people into HAM radio, maybe just my dad and one other person, but it's still a thing.
Nightfox wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Fri Aug 07 2020 11:13 am
The ability to connect directly modem-modem is probably what I miss most about modems. Being able to chat directly, send files directly. It's odd how in the era of always on broadband, we can't really do this easily, and resort to dropbox, etc.
It always seemed to me that you could send files directly with instant messger programs like Yahoo Messgnger, MSN Messenger, ICQ, etc., but
now it seems like most of those are gone.. But these days, there is Google Hangouts, and Pidgin Messenger is still around. You should
still be able to chat with people using such software and send files
that way, I'd think. Though I think some chat software these days will upload your file to a temporary server location until the recipient is online to download it.
Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Fri Aug 07 2020 03:55 pm
It always seemed to me that you could send files directly with instant
messg programs like Yahoo Messgnger, MSN Messenger, ICQ, etc., but now
it seems li most of those are gone.. But these days, there is Google
Don't forget IRC. AFAIK it allowed direct transfer between IRC clients.
IRC seems like it's in a whole different class though.. IRC does chat rooms and isn't just a 1-on-1 instant messenger.
Nightfox
Re: Steam DRM
By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:55 pm
i believe it's how they all got together and negotiated. in my area
we will never have fiber because of the deals verizon cut with att
and charter for cellphone rights.
so in the uppermidwest usa we are stuck with cable or ATT
I've heard in the US, we pay some of the highest prices for some of the worst internet ni the world. There are other countries that have better internet speeds & infrastructure than we do, and customers there pay less for it.
Nightfox
That is what is missing, a basic program where if you only know an IP address you can connect to someone else and chat/send files, etc.
Maybe you would add an authentical layer, public a public connection
and encryption, but effectively the same.
I don't mind reasonable patches which are <4gb... it just seems the norm now that a lot of games released by Activision regularly ask for players to download up to 100gb in the form of a patch. Eurogamer released a news article a few days ago informing all players of CoD:MW (2019) that the next patch would be 47gb in size. All they were adding is a new map and bug fixing so there's no reasonable excuse for such a download size, by pushing such unoptimized downloads they're ostracizing a huge chunk of the community.
You can still do it, but its all indirect, mediated by a server. I think we need a terminal-terminal mode in programs like Qodem and Syncterm, where you can do a direct connect, and chat and send files.
Minicom can do it, but it doesn't support TCP. Telix can do it, over TCP with DOS, but its a bit of a hassle.
Security is an issue, you need some authentication. Also, you need to know the IP address, and some ISPs (like Telstra in Australia) don't give you a public IP address.
I just miss the simplicity of the direct dial.
IRC, Facebook, Skype, MSN Messenger, Jabber, ICQ are not the same as the direct dial. They all require a configured server and/or a third party
Can you connect client to client with IRC?
Nightfox wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Sat Aug 08 2020 01:20 pm
You can still do it, but its all indirect, mediated by a server. I think we need a terminal-terminal mode in programs like Qodem and Syncterm, where you can do a direct connect, and chat and send files.
Minicom can do it, but it doesn't support TCP. Telix can do it, over TCP with DOS, but its a bit of a hassle.
Security is an issue, you need some authentication. Also, you need to know the IP address, and some ISPs (like Telstra in Australia) don't give you a public IP address.
I just miss the simplicity of the direct dial.
In the 90s, there were a couple times when I would direct-dial someone over the modem and we'd just chat over the modem. And I remember there was one user on my BBS back then who I was in a user-sysop chat with,
and he said on a BBS, he thought you could just go ahead and start uploading a file and it would accept the file. I told him on a BBS,
you had to go to the file menu and then choose to upload (and upload to the right area) and he wasn't sure at first. I let him try it and of course, just uploading a file without going to the right place on the
BBS didn't work. I think he was thinking of being on a direct-dial session with someone and sending a file over. If you were using zmodem that way, I think the receiving user's system would just auto-start and the file would start transferring when the sender started sending it.
Ogg wrote to All <=-
Hello Dennisk!
** On Saturday 08.08.20 - 14:30, dennisk wrote to Nightfox:
That is what is missing, a basic program where if you only know an IP address you can connect to someone else and chat/send files, etc.
Maybe you would add an authentical layer, public a public connection
and encryption, but effectively the same.
Can't a torrent transfer be a solution for the file part (sans chat)?
From what I can tell, you can create a torrent token, send it to your peer, and the peer can use it to find your offering. Both systems coordinate the date and time they would be online and feed/seed to each other.
On 08-07-20 20:03, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
That was fun in those days. It's theoretically possible, but no one's bothered to write the applications.
Shouldn't be too hard. I mean, you can kind of do it already with
Telix over DosBox.
Maybe I have found my new programming project.
On 08-07-20 20:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have
older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian,
but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.
A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora.
I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not
be a problem.
On 08-07-20 10:46, Mauro Veiga wrote to VK3JED <=-
@VIA: VERT/ABUTRE2
Quoting Vk3jed to Mauro Veiga at 08-06-20 19:36 <=-
Yes! The hard CRs probably was the Boxer/DOS 7.0b. A great
editor
that match fine with Bluewave.
Except for the bloody hard CRs, which cause the above when quoted. :/
It is the formatting of the boxer. Inevitable.
Klingon Bird of Prey - B'Rel Class
_ ________
_,-'|`||||||||_\___ _,-,_
| /_`-'||||||||' \\-____/_ __o`-,
|[__<|_|||||||| -----.______(=====/
|_\ \------'\____/--------\_,-'
`\`. \-'
\ \ \
`\`. \`
\ `-.__\
\______\
| ___\
\(___======][]
`--"
24
MeSSaGe SiTTeR 1.00 - Full Version
Live Long and Prosper
Nice! :) Let's see if it survives quoting. :)
:-))
Klingon D-7 Class Attack Cruiser
,_o_,
=======
_____----(_o_)----_____
/ `-------------' \
[' `]
23
MeSSaGe SiTTeR 1.00 - Full Version
Live Long and Prosper
On 08-07-20 10:42, DaiTengu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The modern version of that are instant messengers. You can chat with someone in real time, and send/receive files directly.
They've been around for 20+ years.
On 08-07-20 12:24, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not sure if Skype or Teamviewer would allow for file transfers. I recall I could do it with Bomgar on the technican side.
On 08-07-20 15:55, Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-
Don't forget IRC. AFAIK it allowed direct transfer between IRC clients.
On 08-08-20 13:30, Dennisk wrote to Nightfox <=-
Can you connect client to client with IRC?
On 08-07-20 18:51, Gamgee wrote to Moondog <=-
I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
"guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
software.
Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-
On 08-07-20 15:43, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
survival. :)
Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes
me sad.
We're up for a recession here too, though due to fortuitous
circumstances, we're relatively insulated from the worst effects of it.
Good news is there some cheap ways to get started, especially on the highly (and globally) networked VHF/UHF bands, which is where our nets operate.
Underminer wrote to Atroxi <=-
Hey man, super glad you're fitting in and enjoying yourself. This is
not meant to be a killjoy message in any respect, but just a heads up:
You don't need to include the entirety of previos messages in your
reply quoting. Try to just quote the relevant and needed parts to
remind people what you're replying to; for those reading on the typical 80x24 terminal screen a wall of reply quote can get in the way of
message flow a bit.
Sometime's it's a bit of an art to pick the quote lines appropriately,
but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it quickly :) ---
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
config you want at install.
One spin, multiple outcomes.
Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Atroxi to Dennisk on
Fri Aug 07 2020 01:22 pm
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.
Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.
I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)
There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).
Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.
... Whatever happens, happens.
Linux users are a diverse group with diverse interests. The friendly desktop movement is probably second to the linux server side. Ubuntu
and Mint are most likely the leaders in the desktop development, and
all the little Windows and OSX lookalikes depend on these bigger
distros momentum.
Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Atroxi to Dennisk on
Fri Aug 07 2020 01:35 pm
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.
In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.
Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.
I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.
OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.
Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove a of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just b adding stuff into it.
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually deve your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
... Whatever happens, happens.
There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep
in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly,
I would try it again to see if i could streamline the process (and
learn even more)
I'm sorry! Yeah, it's quite a balance to not lose context and have a wall of text when the conversation has been going on for a while. I'll be more mindful from now on. :-)
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-07-20 20:03, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
That was fun in those days. It's theoretically possible, but no one's bothered to write the applications.
Shouldn't be too hard. I mean, you can kind of do it already with
Telix over DosBox.
Yeah, I think a newbie network programming assignment, really. :)
Maybe I have found my new programming project.
Should be a quick one. ;)
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-07-20 20:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have
older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian,
but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.
Yes, Debian often has older versions, if you use stable. I installed
my own Firefox on Mint, IIRC.
A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora.
I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not
be a problem.
I found the rapid release cycle and planned obolescence of Fedora a
pain, but it is a solid distro.
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
config you want at install.
One spin, multiple outcomes.
Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the
system would install and configured, this includes all the user
settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very
lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials.
That might be something that would interest you.
Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-
On 08-07-20 18:51, Gamgee wrote to Moondog <=-
Re Linux from Scratch
I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
"guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
software.
Learning is probably the only reason I'd do it. Maybe if we get a
stage 4 lockdown here, I may have to amuse myself that way. :)
Re: Steam DRM
By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:55 pm
i believe it's how they all got together and negotiated. in my area we will never have fiber because of the deals verizon cut with att and charter for cellphone rights.
so in the uppermidwest usa we are stuck with cable or ATT
I've heard in the US, we pay some of the highest prices for some of the wors
Nightfox
I've heard in the US, we pay some of the highest prices for some of
the wors
Other nations are as large as some of our states, so I can imagine it's cheaper to run high speed broadband elsewhere.
IRC, Facebook, Skype, MSN Messenger, Jabber, ICQ are not the same as the dir dial. They all require a configured server and/or a third party moderated account. You can't just install Skype on two machines and connect, you have create accounts with Microsoft.
That is what is missing, a basic program where if you only know an IP addres you can connect to someone else and chat/send files, etc. Maybe you would a an authentical layer, public a public connection and encryption, but effectively the same.
Something like Minicom/Telix using an SSH tunnel.
Can you connect client to client with IRC?
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
That said, things like Slack, Discord, HipChat, IRC, etc. allow
one-on-one private messages with file transfers as well.
Things like Slack, Discord, and IRC seem in a different league all their own compared to the more simple one-on-one instant messenger clients.
There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
streamline the process (and learn even more)
It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).
I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
"guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
software.
Can't a torrent transfer be a solution for the file part (sans chat)? From what I can tell, you can create a torrent token, send it to your peer, and the peer can use it to find your offering. Both systems coordinate the date and time they would be online and feed/seed to each other.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Sat Aug 08 2020 01:30 pm
IRC, Facebook, Skype, MSN Messenger, Jabber, ICQ are not the same as
the direct dial. They all require a configured server and/or a third
party
I wasn't really thinking of direct dial in this case, but that's true.
Can you connect client to client with IRC?
Not that I know of. IRC clients require connecting to an IRC server.
would also needs to act as a tracker.
My point isn't that there aren't ways to transfer files, there are. But you can no longer "just connect" in the way you could with Telix.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Dennisk to Ogg on Sat Aug 08 2020 04:40 pm
would also needs to act as a tracker.
My point isn't that there aren't ways to transfer files, there are. But you can no longer "just connect" in the way you could with Telix.
This may go beyond gaming and cover films and written literature that may be locked away on encrypted devices.
Many of the popular instant messengers are either gone or stripped of many of their features though. MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, and I think AOL Messenger are no longer working, and ICQ is not nearly what it used to be. There are things like Google Hangouts, but I'm not sure if they allow direct file transfers.
That's pretty big.
In the 90s, I remember downloading patches for games like Descent, Doom, and others that would update the binaries from one version to a newer version. They'd basically do a "diff" between the old & new binaries, and the patcher program would basically change the old binary into the new binary based on the differences. It made for relatively small patches, though they were made only to update a specific version. They even did that to update shareware versions, if I remember right.
A lot of modern instant messengers are designed for mobile, now. WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc. Heck, every mobile phone has some sort of text messaging, which is really just instant messaging between phone numbers (and capable of transferring media files)
Many of the popular instant messengers are either gone or stripped of
many of their features though. MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, and I
think AOL Messenger are no longer working, and ICQ is not nearly what
it used to be. There are things like Google Hangouts, but I'm not sure
if they allow direct file transfers.
People tend to use IMs on their phone now, hence the popularity of WhatsApp.
DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Aug 07 2020 06:51 pm
There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
streamline the process (and learn even more)
It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).
I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
"guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
software.
running Gentoo taught me more about Linux than any other distro
ever did. Granted, back when I first started, I was bootstrapping
with stage 1, and now it just installs a base system that you
eventually recompile after modifying your use flags and tweaking
your compiler settings.
I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's
gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It
still runs great.
It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading
conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of
information on solving just about any issue you run into.
Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags an stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec fas boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from "user maintaing the system" standpoint.
I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.
OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GU shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying mo of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Windo Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.
Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me an would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remov of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actua now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jiv would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll jus adding stuff into it.
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at s point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually d your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
... Whatever happens, happens.
There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could streamline the process (and learn even more)
Oh man, I'm also tempted to do that as well but I guess I still don't have t balls (and the patience) to spend an afternoon (or even more) trying to diagnose issues when configuring and compiling everything manually as to compared to something like using portage. Even portage can be quite a challe if you're not prepared for it, which I was certainly am when I first install gentoo, haha! :-)
... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: DaiTengu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 08 2020 04:39 pm
A lot of modern instant messengers are designed for mobile, now. WhatsA Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc. Heck, every mobile phone has some so of text messaging, which is really just instant messaging between phone numbers (and capable of transferring media files)
I've heard WhatsApp and similar messengers are so popular in some countries that people just use those and might never use SMS text messenging.
Nightfox
On 08-08-20 21:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Might base it on Minicom, as it has most of the functionality already.
On 08-08-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was
looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.
But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto.
So I stayed.
On 08-08-20 22:14, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
If you are wanting to learn how to make a distro, it is useful. But if you want to learn Linux, and have time, I think it is much better to
learn BASH scripting or better yet, the Unix toolset, awk, sed, cut,
grep, and others, maybe groff as well. With this knowledge, you'd be
able to create new and novel solutions. Or you can learn more
customisation, editing existing scripts, or learning to configure FVWM.
On 08-08-20 21:08, Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-
There is a WhatsApp desktop program for Windows, but it requires your phone to be available on the same network, since it seems to
communicate through the WhatsApp app on the phone.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-08-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was
looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.
But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto.
So I stayed.
Interesting, how do you manage that? That could be a useful way to
treat Fedora.
Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-
I absolutely maintain that iOS and Android are killing Windows. I am
not sure if Windows are as dominant as they used to be in the corporate world, but they're taking losses everywhere else. Their Windows Phone
OS bombed hard, and I am glad of it.
Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-
Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous
offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You
still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems.
That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments
it's laughably horrible.
Then there's the frequency with which auto
updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad
tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time.
Once again, fine
for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from
clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random
event is higher than it has been since Vista.
I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's
gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It
still runs great.
Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.
It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading
conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of
information on solving just about any issue you run into.
Yes, they are well-regarded sources of info, even by others who
don't use Gentoo. I have referred to those forums quite a few
times over the years.
Glad to hear there are still some who use it - it has lost favor
compared to years ago when everything was new, but that doesn't
mean it isn't good. I know that well, being a Slackware user.
Most of the instant messanging programs I mentioned above (MSN Messenger and Yahoo Messenger at least) had a smartphone app available too..
There is a WhatsApp desktop program for Windows, but it requires your phone to be available on the same network, since it seems to communicate through the WhatsApp app on the phone.
Nightfox
Yes. In Spain, everybody uses Whatsapp or Telegram. Signal Messenger has gained some traction during the COVID-19 lockdowns because of claims Whatsapp was limiting the sharing of links and messages because the amount of anti-government dissenting had skyrocketed.
The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.
Yes. In Spain, everybody uses Whatsapp or Telegram. Signal Messenger
has gained some traction during the COVID-19 lockdowns because of
claims Whatsapp was limiting the sharing of links and messages because
the amount of anti-government dissenting had skyrocketed.
SMS is mainly used for corporative messaging. It is just the one show
to be the most reliable. It is the sort of thing banks use to deliver one-time-pins and the like.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Underminer <=-
Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-
Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous
offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You
still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems.
I haven't had to schedule production maintenance windows around a
reboot
schedule in 10 years.
That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments
it's laughably horrible.
Nope, it works.
Then there's the frequency with which auto
updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad
tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time.
In corporate environments you're testing patches and pushing them out
using WSUS or a similar management platform - especially on your
server environment. Or, you've paid for a platform like Ivanti, which
manages office, windows and 3rd party patches with one platform.
Once again, fine
for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from
clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random
event is higher than it has been since Vista.
If you're on a domain, I could imagine a SMB IT Manager setting up
via group policy a group of test machines to receive patches first,
then set the rest of the systems to download only. As an IT manager,
you patch on Tuesday, test on Wednesday, and tell everyone to patch
on Thursday.
I'd claim that those issues plague SMBs more than enterprise, and
Microsoft has a gap there. They need to look at a solution for small
businesses to better manage their patching, but I could imagine they
look at it as it's better to crash a few boxes than to let a few
million miss a critical patch.
Now, I could imagine them pushing Azure cloud services as a solution
instead of patch management. It's a shame, I made a good deal of
money selling Small Business Server back in the 2000s. It's a nice
little package for small offices.
Nope, it works.
One thing I dislike about the new system of cellphones is that people who would otherwise be a local call due to their actual place of residence now show up as a long-distance call on my bill.
I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.
Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.
Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.
Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.
To activate you WhatsApp account, a telephone number is required. It's one account per SIM... which is why it's so popualar, I believe. As soon as you add someone to your phone book, they're automatically added on WhatsApp.
In the UK WhatsApp is so big I have never really heard of people using SMS. I have personally used around 5-10 SMS messages in 2020, and these messages are to older folk who don't have smartphones.
WhatsApp is great when it comes to sending pictures, documents or videos... it's such a streamlined and easy to use service once it has access to your phone.
I have been involved in larger group chats with
people from work and any files dropped are accessible to those within the chat. One to one voice/video chat along with conference calls are possible too.
I do miss MSN Messenger on Windows though. I have a lot of fond memories using that IM around 2004-2012. I recall FaceBook being responsible for partially killing it around 2009/2010. I hated that integrated web-script chat box and much perferred the MSN client.
One thing I dislike about the new system of cellphones is that people who Og>> would otherwise be a local call due to their actual place of residence Og>> now show up as a long-distance call on my bill.
whats long distance?
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it. ---
Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.Most of the time. I remember trying to install Arch once a few years back on a laptop, and that just didn't go well for me.
On 08-09-20 22:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the
update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the
only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.
On 08-09-20 23:11, Ogg wrote to MRO <=-
Long distance calls incur charges per minute.
Local calls are free.
I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am
I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-09-20 22:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the
update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the
only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.
Sounds good, but the key detail is what's the process for such updating
to create the effective "rolling distro"?
MRO wrote to Underminer <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm
Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.
Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.
Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.
Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.
Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
config you want at install.
One spin, multiple outcomes.
Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the
system would install and configured, this includes all the user
settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very
lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials.
That might be something that would interest you.
It's quite likely that its already been done, or thought of. I think
it is a better solution than multiple spins, or spin-off distros.
Simpler and less confusing.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
= Synchronet = End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
Slackware was my first distro back in the mid 90's. I remember starting a kernel compile, and having to let it run overnig
Slackware is the base system that my NAS runs on, using a system called "UnRAID". So I still get to tinker with it from time
time. :)
To activate you WhatsApp account, a telephone number is required. It's one account per SIM... which is why it's so popualar,
believe. As soon as you add someone to your phone book, they're automatically added on WhatsApp.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Sun Aug 09 2020 05:22 am
Yes. In Spain, everybody uses Whatsapp or Telegram. Signal Messenger has gained some traction during the COVID-19 lockdow
because of claims Whatsapp was limiting the sharing of links and messages because the amount of anti-government dissenti
had skyrocketed.
The same happened here in the UK due to people spreading "misinformation"... I have seen a more concerted effort from the
silicon valley giants to control information, which is why companies such as Google are being investigated in relation to th
upcoming US election.
Re: Re: Linux
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:56 am
The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.
Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they
switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who bui
their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm
Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembli
real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it
you.
Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone
system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.
Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it.
In the UK WhatsApp is so big I have never really heard of people using SMS. I have personally used around 5-10 SMS
messages in 2020, and these messages are to older folk who don't have smartphones.
I've heard it's different in other countries, but in the US, most people use SMS to text each other on their phones, so
normally we would not have a reason to use WhatsApp unless we know someone who uses WhatsApp for some reason.
What's the reason for people not using SMS in the UK? That seems a little strange to me, because SMS is a feature included
with all cell phones, and WhatsApp is a 3rd-party app you have to install on your phone before you can use it.
I've heard it's different in other countries, but in the US, most people use SMS to text each other on their phones, so normally we would not have a reason to use WhatsApp unless we know someone who uses WhatsApp for some reason.
What's the reason for people not using SMS in the UK? That seems a little strange to me, because SMS is a feature included with all cell phones, and WhatsApp is a 3rd-party app you have to install on your phone before you can use it.
You can do that with SMS messages too.. What advantage does WhatsApp offer in that regard?
You can do group chats with SMS too, and send a file out to everyone.
There are contacts I had on MSN Messneger and other chat clients that I don't have on my contacts anymore. One chat program I really miss is ICQ though. ICQ had a little profile you could fill out for yourself, and ICQ would let you search for a random chat partner from anywhere in th eworld.
I used that in the late 90s to early 2000s to chat with people. I think ICQ has removed those features though.
The real strangth of that, from the comercial point of view, is that it removes the necessity of managing user credentials.
Your average dumb user only needs to know his phone number to operate the messaging device. No more user/password combinations
required, which nowadays a lot of people is unable to manage.
This has the bonus of letting the IM service provider know your phone number and the phone number of your contacts, which is
juicy minable data.
Microsoft does not make the bulk of their money from selling you a software license. They don't give a damn if you pirate the
hell out of it. They want you to use Microsoft Office, pirated or not, because that way they ensure the dominant document
format in the IT ecosystem is one they control. Then they can charge multiple kilobucks to enterprise customers if they want to
do fancy stuff with that format.
Or patent troll you, or whatever.
I don't build my own machines with the intention of screwing Microsoft, but I certainly build them from used components or buy
used ones because that is so much more cost effective. Running Linux or OpenBSD on top of them certainly prevents a MS Windows
sale.
contracts. I have access to infinite data and around 500 SMS messages per month... the internet appears to be a lot quicker to me than SMS. Also,
I didn't know that it was possible to SMS as part of a group... does that mean you're sending a single message several times to different people? That would eat up your SMS allocation quickly.
In relation to pictures/files, are you referring to MMS? That's really quite slow and again, it consumes your SMS monthly allocation quickly. I've never tried sending a video over MMS - sounds like a god damn nightmare, tbh.
ICQ was my first IM client. I liked it a lot however only really used it to speak to my cousin who lived around 400 miles away from me. mIRC was my main chat client for around three years... it was absolutely required if you were involved in the online gaming scene backin the late 90s, early 00s.
I think most phone IMs operate in the same fashion. WhatsApp is massive in the UK but I think it's different elsewhere - in Asia WeChat and Viber seem to be the go to IMs.
Windows updates often run on their own unless your company has set up an U Server. Those give your Systems Administrator (or team) the ability to scr d install updates based on their schedule instead of Redmond's.
whats long distance?
Long distance calls incur charges per minute.
Local calls are free.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
It's not "hard," it's needlessly aggravating. It's like... imagine if you had a car where you had to walk around and unlock all the doors before any would open, and 90% of the cars on the market worked like that, then you get a car that has remote start and try to explain to people that the "normal" way of doing things is broken and there's a much better system out there, but all you get back is that walking around to all 4 doors and putting your key in works just fine, and they ask why it's so hard for you.... it isn't, but it's stupid.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am
I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never
seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the
software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.
I shut down my machine at the end of the day. Must be during the day. Or maybe Windows doesn't get updates at all.
boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux
or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I
am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the
intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it.
Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.
For us the biggest advantage (other than being able to control what gets updated when) is having one server reaching out to the internet to download the updates. Then all of our servers & workstations can download from that one server, saving on bandwidth and speeding up installations.
yeah i'm just joking. in my area we havent had long distance charges
in many many years.
whats long distance?
Long distance calls incur charges per minute.
Local calls are free.
yeah i'm just joking. in my area we havent had long distance charges
in many many years.
i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get aggrivated by windows.
maybe there are some 3rd party programs you could use to tweak it to your liking. ---
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm
boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.
if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---
Hello MRO!
** On Monday 10.08.20 - 22:10, mro wrote to Ogg:
whats long distance?
Long distance calls incur charges per minute.
Local calls are free.
yeah i'm just joking. in my area we havent had long distance
charges in many many years.
Where exactly is your area?
i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get
aggrivated by windows.
I deal with and support this junk all day, so I have a very low tolerance left for annoyances with it for my own usage. Likewise, decades of deskside support, depot work, and IT consulting have bombarded me with the multitude of really stupid ways Windows environments can fail. Linux isn't immune to that, but I find it easier to avoid. If you prefer Windows, by all means use it.
if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have
problems. ---
I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.
Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.
... Be extravagant
I had a couple family members & friends on my ICQ list, but I often used ICQ's feature of connecting you to random people to chat with. IRC is a bit of a different thing in that IRC seemed to mainly be used for chat rooms with multiple people.
I have some friends in Brazil who use WhatsApp. One created a few group chats for people who want to learn English, Portuguese, and Italian. That's basically the only thing I'm using WhatsApp for right now.. Nobody else I know uses WhatsApp.
Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.
Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?
Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 02:05 pm
I have some friends in Brazil who use WhatsApp. One created a few group chats for people who want to learn English, Portuguese, and Italian. That's basically the only thing I'm using WhatsApp for right now.. Nobody else I know uses WhatsApp.
Do Americans use WhatsApp on the whole? Are IMs popular in the
States or do you all have massive SMS contracts? Like I said, in
the UK WhatsApp is ALL we use. I am not sure if it's the same in
mainland Europe... Arelor said there's another IM that's popular
in Spain but they also use WhatsApp.
Re: Re: Linux
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm
Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.
Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... sure
that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?
On 08-10-20 20:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date
Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31
to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-10-20 20:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date
Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31
to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.
That's not a helpful practical detail, just a statement of what appears
to be fact. I'm more interested in the process used. I know how
Debian is upgraded, and I don't know what other distros can be successfully upgraded in a similar way.
Do Americans use WhatsApp on the whole? Are IMs popular in the States or do you all have massive SMS contracts? Like I said, in the UK WhatsApp is ALL we use. I am not sure if it's the same in mainland Europe... Arelor said there's another IM that's popular in Spain but they also use WhatsApp.
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon
it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were
happy with the transaction at the time?
The argument was based on the MS TOS that stated you could get a refund. However Microsoft required the OEM Vendors to provide the refund, so nobody received one from Microsoft. It did however do a good job at promoting Free Software concerns.
WhatsApp is certainly used in the US; I would guess mostly by
younger people. As far as I know, most (all?) phone contracts
include unlimited SMS. Mine certainly does, and everyone I know -
we all send a lot of texts.
Interesting. That's never been the case in the UK. I've owned a mobile phone for over 17 years and I have never had a contract which has given me more than 500 SMS text messages per month. Pre-smartphone days, most contracts only offered 300 SMS messages - and we really needed them back then as there was no other method of mobile text communication (that was mainstream).
Are 20GB+ data contracts the norm in the US? We consume a lot of internet data here in the UK and the plans on offer reflect that.
WhatsApp is certainly used in the US; I would guess mostly by
younger people. As far as I know, most (all?) phone contracts
include unlimited SMS. Mine certainly does, and everyone I know -
we all send a lot of texts.
Do Americans use WhatsApp on the whole? Are IMs popular in the States or do you all have massive SMS contracts? Like I said, in the UK WhatsApp is ALL we use. I am not sure if it's the same in mainland Europe... Arelor said there's another IM that's popular in Spain but they also use WhatsApp.
I suppose it's better if each country sticks to one popular IM so that there's no requirement to download more than one third party app. I use WhatsApp as my only internet based chat service, and I SMS the odd person who doesn't have a smart phone.
Re: Re: Linux
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm
Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.
Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 08:07 pm
WhatsApp is certainly used in the US; I would guess mostly by
younger people. As far as I know, most (all?) phone contracts
include unlimited SMS. Mine certainly does, and everyone I know -
we all send a lot of texts.
Interesting. That's never been the case in the UK. I've owned a
mobile phone for over 17 years and I have never had a contract
which has given me more than 500 SMS text messages per month. Pre-smartphone days, most contracts only offered 300 SMS messages
- and we really needed them back then as there was no other
method of mobile text communication (that was mainstream).
Are 20GB+ data contracts the norm in the US? We consume a lot of
internet data here in the UK and the plans on offer reflect that.
Are 20GB+ data contracts the norm in the US? We consume a lot of internet data
here in the UK and the plans on offer reflect that.
Unlimited SMS has been around as long as I can remember, certainly
I think it is the "norm" now among all major carriers.
Are 20GB+ data contracts the norm in the US? We consume a lot of internet data here in the UK and the plans on offer reflect that.
As far as I know, the norm for data now is "unlimited". There may
be caveats to that with some carriers, such as after a certain
amount of bandwidth is used (generally a LOT), they start to
"throttle" your speed some. I don't think it's usually an issue
for 99% of folks.
On 08-12-20 21:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.
Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm
boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.
if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---
I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.
On 8/12/2020 10:04 AM, Andeddu wrote:
Are 20GB+ data contracts the norm in the US? We consume a lot of internet data
here in the UK and the plans on offer reflect that.
My current plan is "unlimited" but subject to throttling after the first 20G. I have hit my unthrottled cap before. I don't even have a
personal laptop currently, but when I did it was because I was connected
via my cell, and windows, and several apps immediately started
updated... what really sucked it was the start of my new month of
service, so I was throttled all that month. That was on a 5gb plan at
the time.
Closest I've come lately is around 17GB and that was on a 10 day road trip.
--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS
I don't really know anyone in the US who uses WhatsApp. And I'm not sure what you mean by "massive SMS contracts"? Cell phone plans in the US usually have unlimited SMS messages; I've only occasionally heard of some plans that have limited SMS messages or where SMS messages cost extra money to send/receive.
That seems interesting to me.. For a long time, there was no WhatsApp, so I think cell phone carriers in the US just decided to provide unlimited SMS messages.
Data caps are common. I think my data usage cap for my smartphone is actually somewhere around 5GB per month, which is much lower than the 20GB you mention. But I rarely use data on my phone when I'm out, so I've never noticed myself hitting that limit. When I use things on my smartphone that require data, often it's when I'm at home or somewhere else that has wifi. And naturally, when I'm out of the house, I'm usually busy driving or doing something anyway, so I have less chance to use my phone.
i'm in the usa and i cant really get into whatsapp.
i use pretty much everything and so do my friends. i use google voice to keep in touch with my friends [and facebook]
As far as I know, the norm for data now is "unlimited". There may
be caveats to that with some carriers, such as after a certain
amount of bandwidth is used (generally a LOT), they start to
"throttle" your speed some. I don't think it's usually an issue
for 99% of folks.
My current plan is "unlimited" but subject to throttling after the first 20G. I have hit my unthrottled cap before. I don't even have a
personal laptop currently, but when I did it was because I was connected
via my cell, and windows, and several apps immediately started
updated... what really sucked it was the start of my new month of
service, so I was throttled all that month. That was on a 5gb plan at
the time.
Closest I've come lately is around 17GB and that was on a 10 day road trip.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 08:07 pm
WhatsApp is certainly used in the US; I would guess mostly by younger people. As far as I know, most (all?) phone contracts include unlimited SMS. Mine certainly does, and everyone I know -
we all send a lot of texts.
I live in the US and haven't really noticed anyone I know using
WhatsApp. I sup pose it's possible though.
SMS messages were never really used as a method of conversation over here... due to the low-monthy cap, they were used to send quick messeges like instructions -- definitely not full blown conversations like we do now on WhatsApp. I think that's why IMs on the PC were so important, we were always chatting to people via the home computer. Now all text based conversations are carried out via the smartphone.
I have an unlimited data plan which I make use of... I think I average around 27GB per month. I don't tend to connect my phone to the router at home because 4G is so quick and reliable.
20GB should be enough of a threshold for most people. Having a phone with an uncapped unlimited data plan has sure changed the way I use technology. I pretty much just use my phone these days... I very rarely browse the web on my PC and the only other device I use to go online is my iPad. Around a decade ago I used my laptop to carry out at least 90% of all my media consumption.
I live in the US and haven't really noticed anyone I know using
WhatsApp. I sup pose it's possible though.
One important thing to remember is that WhatsApp is used universally in OTHER countries, which in turn drives many Americans using it to talk and communicate with their familes and friends FROM those countries. So yes, not a lot of 'americans' use whatsapp as their form of text/communication, but there are many with firneds and familes in other countries that do use it - in order to communicate with them.
I know its unpopular, but with the TikTok/WhatsApp bans that Trump is bringing... I just think that America shouldn't tell its citizens what they can and can't do. I can't wrapo my head around how thats OK. If we're free, we're free to choose what risks we want to take or not. If I can't even get people around me to mitigate and wear masks, how the hell can you tell me not to watch videos on TikTok!!
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-12-20 21:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.
Oh, OK, so they've gone away from YUM? Not sure I like the sound of "DNF", in my game it means "Did Not Finish". ;)
Anyway, that makes sense, and that would make Fedora a more interesting proposition.
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm
boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.
if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---
I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.
Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 08:07 pm
WhatsApp is certainly used in the US; I would guess mostly by
younger people. As far as I know, most (all?) phone contracts
include unlimited SMS. Mine certainly does, and everyone I know -
we all send a lot of texts.
Interesting. That's never been the case in the UK. I've owned a mobile phone for over 17 years and I have never had a contract which has given me more th 500 SMS text messages per month. Pre-smartphone days, most contracts only offered 300 SMS messages - and we really needed them back then as there was other method of mobile text communication (that was mainstream).
Are 20GB+ data contracts the norm in the US? We consume a lot of internet da here in the UK and the plans on offer reflect that.
On 08-14-20 09:49, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.
I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-14-20 09:49, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.
Ahh OK, cool. So won't be an issue to learn, I am still familiar with yum. :)
I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.
I started with Ygdrasil(sp?), then Slackware, then moved to Red Hat for
a number of years, but in recent years (last 10 or so), I've drifted across to Debian style distros. :)
A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.
If you ever are wanting Arch again, google ARCHFI and use that script to do the installation... it guides you thru install; you don't have to know the inner workings of linux to get wifi and other essentials going.
However, I suggest that people use Archfi once and then go back and learn the linuxy stuff... its great knowledge to have, if you ever have to dig in on other systems some day.
Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current -stable release of Slackware is getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the release goals are and what we can expect.
s windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it.
Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.
For me, IM programs on computers were always easier because I can type a lot faster on a real keyboard. That was especially true before smartphones, where you had to press the keys on a phone keyboard a few times to get the letter you want, for each letter. Back then I rarely used SMS messages because it just took so long to type them on a cell phone. But with smartphones, it has become easier.
There are times when I like to just relax and browse things online with my phone. I think it works well for that, but there are times when I want to type something, and I really like using the real keyboard on my desktop PC (or a laptop) because I type so much faster on one. As they say sometimes, mobile devices are good for consumption, but desktop PCs and laptops are still good for content creation. Though these days, you could potentially use a bluetooth keyboard & mouse with a mobile device. I've even seen adapters for a smartphone that will give you a standard USB port on a phone. My last phone (a Samsung Galaxy S7) came with one such adapter, and one time I tried using it to plug in a standard USB mouse on my phone, and I got a mouse pointer on it..
I've heard of the TikTok ban, but haven't heard anything about WhatsApp being banned..
I hadn't even heard of TikTok until a few months ago, when TikTok was in the news for potentially being insecure and sending information back to China.
I think pre-smartphone everyone struggled with messaging which is why we ended up with text speak. After around 2008, things got a lot easier... I
I hadn't even heard of TikTok until a few months ago, when TikTok was
in the news for potentially being insecure and sending information
back to China.
TikTok is the new Vine. It's one of the most popular social media platforms among young adults/kids.
Re: Re: Linux
By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:38 am
Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current -stable release of Slackware is
getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling
blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the release goals are and what we can expect.
Roadmaps are nice to have, especially with huge open source projects like distros. It sounds like they just don't quite have a "big picture" group as to where they
want to go.
The only machine I run any kind of *BSD on here is my pfSense router. I haven't used it in any production environment in about a decade.
My go-to choice for any kind of production server is CentOS. It's stable, and that's often what I need.
DaiTengu
... I can't promise anything but I can promise 100%.
Heh, just a word of warning. It looks like IBM is doing IBM things and started quietly outsourcing what Red Hat's team used to do to India. So much for their promises of letting Red Hat be the same it always was...
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 12:02 am
I think pre-smartphone everyone struggled with messaging which is why we ended up with text speak. After around 2008, things got a lot easier... I
What is "text speak"?
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 12:02 am
What is "text speak"?
TikTok is the new Vine. It's one of the most popular social media platforms among young adults/kids.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
I hadn't heard of Vine either until after it died in 2017. It was particularly big in the USA.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 12:12 am
I hadn't even heard of TikTok until a few months ago, when TikTok was
in the news for potentially being insecure and sending information
back to China.
TikTok is the new Vine. It's one of the most popular social media
platforms among young adults/kids.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
you've never heard of before can make you feel positively one-hundred years old.
I hadn't heard of Vine either until after it died in 2017. It was particularly big in the USA.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
DO YOU LIVE IN A CAVE
TikTok is the new Vine. It's one of the most popular social media
platforms among young adults/kids.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :PDO YOU LIVE IN A CAVE
Hello MRO!
** On Saturday 15.08.20 - 19:03, mro wrote to Nightfox:
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
DO YOU LIVE IN A CAVE
Maybe some people are not interested in visiting social media cess pools.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
DO YOU LIVE IN A CAVE
Maybe some people are not interested in visiting social media cess pools.
TikTok is the new Vine. It's one of the most popular social media
platforms among young adults/kids.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
DO YOU LIVE IN A CAVE
Maybe it's his Man-Cave?
vine was just funny short videos.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:44 pm
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 12:02 am
What is "text speak"?
it is gr8 2 spk 2 u 2nyt. ty 4 ur rply.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:45 pm
TikTok is the new Vine. It's one of the most popular social media platforms among young adults/kids.
Vine is something I'm not really familiar with either.. :P
Haha, coming across all these massively popular social media apps which you' never heard of before can make you feel positively one-hundred years old.
I hadn't heard of Vine either until after it died in 2017. It was particular big in the USA.
On 08-14-20 22:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally,
but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely
won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".
A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.
Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.
vine was just funny short videos.
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: MRO to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:54 pm
vine was just funny short videos.
I have heard of "vines" as short videos. But I didn't realize there was a site called Vine. I've seen collections of "vines" as short funny videos on YouTube.
I hadn't heard of Vine either until after it died in 2017. It was
particular
big in the USA.
Not big enough because i never heard of it either
Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another. Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of
Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems, and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.
There are some things I guess I don't pay much attention to. There's a TV show called Breaking Bad, which was apparently fairly popular, but I had never heard of it until there was a news story that it was in its last season. :P
i miss vine. it was very entertaining.
Not big enough because i never heard of it either
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:54 pm
i miss vine. it was very entertaining.
TikTok is very similar... will you miss that too?
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-14-20 22:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally,
but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely
won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".
So it's dead simple to switch to Dnf. :D
A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.
Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.
Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A
lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another.
Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of dependencies from multiple non standard sources) may be available precompiled for a particular distro, or dependencies may be easier to satisfy on certsin distros.
Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems,
and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There
was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.
I know its unpopular, but with the TikTok/WhatsApp bans that Trump is bringing... I just think that America shouldn't tell its citizens wha they can and can't do. I can't wrapo my head around how thats OK. If
I've heard of the TikTok ban, but haven't heard anything about WhatsApp being ba nned..
Linux is literally my day job. :)
I'm a sysadmin for a large adtech company. I manage about 2000
physical server s and a couple hundred virtual ones.
dealing with Linux all day really has
killed my desire to ti nker with it in my free time. :)
There are some things I guess I don't pay much attention to. There's a TV show called Breaking Bad, which was apparently fairly popular, but I had never heard of it until there was a news story that it was in its last season. :P
Haha, I think everone's seen Breaking Bad over here except me, I can't be arsed watching something that's 5+ seasons long. Too much to get through, so I'd rather not bother.
On 08-16-20 13:28, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-
that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.
Yeah, if there's a package available there's going to be a .deb. The
AUR is super nice in Arch though. ---
On 08-17-20 08:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.
I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't
.rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software
packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but
no .rpm.
Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight
advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.
20GB should be enough of a threshold for most people. Having a phone with an uncapped unlimited data plan has sure changed the way I use technology. I pretty much just use my phone these days... I very rarely browse the web on my
PC and the only other device I use to go online is my iPad. Around a decade ago
I used my laptop to carry out at least 90% of all my media consumption.
How things change!
Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After
selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner. I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell, streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc, occasionally using my own copy of a
binary instead of the distro one (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).
It's been some time since I tried to play with Arch, I keep meaning to go back to it, but honestly, dealing with Linux all day really has killed my desire to tinker with it in my free time. :)
There are some things I guess I don't pay much attention to. There's a TV >> show called Breaking Bad, which was apparently fairly popular, but I had
never heard of it until there was a news story that it was in its last
season. :P
Haha, I think everone's seen Breaking Bad over here except me, I can't be arsed
watching something that's 5+ seasons long. Too much to get through, so I'd rather not bother.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-17-20 08:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.
Cool, of course, I could even do:
ln -s dnf yum
from the directory dnf resides in.
I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't
.rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software
packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but
no .rpm.
I even have software that not only had a .deb, but a complete apt repository, and some that are quite distribution specific - I had to
use Debian 9 to successfully install the AllStarLink RoIP system. The .debs would install on other distros like Ubuntu 18.04, but the source
for Dahdi (the drivers) wouldn't compile on Ubuntu.
Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight
advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.
Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.
it's similar but not the same entirely. i find it less enjoyable and i'm not an avid user.
Yeah... I use a combination of things... I'm WFH, and have a wired VPN
Re: Re: BBSes today
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:38 pm
it's similar but not the same entirely. i find it less enjoyable and
i'm not an avid user.
I never used Vine or TikTok but I have seen my fair share of videos posted on YouTube. I agree, some can be highly entertaining. There will be a gap
On 08-17-20 21:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I just found that I stil have yum installed!
Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.
Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?
Yeah... I use a combination of things... I'm WFH, and have a wired
VPN
what the hell is WFH
white fat human?
On 08-17-20 16:54, MRO wrote to Tracker1 <-
what the hell is WFH
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 08-17-20 21:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I just found that I stil have yum installed!
Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?
Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.
Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?
At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.
Yeah... I use a combination of things... I'm WFH, and have a wired VPN device for my work laptop. Beyond this, there's a combination of
devices connected to the TVs. I have my Shield TV, fiance and daughter prefer Fire sticks, and there's also chromecasting. I do watch youtube
on TV, but will use my phone a lot of the time.
It's a decent show. You don't have to binge it, you can do it just like
any syndication show, watching an episode a night during the week to
wind down.
If you like "Breaking Bad" should also give "The Shield" a view.
--
Michael J. Ryan
On 08-18-20 21:15, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?
It's a symlink to dnf!
At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.
Cool. If any questions, let me know.
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm
boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.
if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---
I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.
Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).
Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner.
I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell,
streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit
me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot
button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc,
occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one
(I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-
Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Linux
By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm
boot things out the window far too often.
why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
have problems with it. ---
Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.
if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---
I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.
Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).
Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner.
I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell,
streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit
me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot
button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc,
Oh yes. What a thrill doing something like that is. A few months ago I dived head-first into Gentoo and suddenly a whole world of
customization was opened to me. I never imagined how these small tweaks would actually be beneficial on the long run but it did. Sadly, the
amount of time compiling packages really took a toll on me, haha! And I feel like I'm not yet smart enough to deal with stuff or maybe I'm just lazy to give up a weekend to just learn the stuff.
Right now I've pretty much integrated my whole setup around using bspwm and terminal applications. It's surprising to me actually how little
that I need to have to be able to use my computer productively (or not, haha!). Most of the time I'm just writing stuff and that's done through vim and I either compile it to LaTeX or groff. Other than that, most of the stuff that I have are scripts that I wrote to manage the system's functions like using dmenu as a power menu, display menu, mount menu,
etc. I think right now the only thing that I'm missing is the ability
to do spreadsheets, and while libreoffice does that I would like to do spreadsheets in the commandline.
occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one
(I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).
Oh man. It IS a pain.
I dont think many people actually have fiber. i have to use spectrum which is only like 10MB down and 2MB up. sucks.
Re: Steam DRM
By: MRO to Arelor on Wed Aug 05 2020 09:11 pm
I dont think many people actually have fiber. i have to use spectrum
which is only like 10MB down and 2MB up. sucks.
I have Spectrum cable here and it's pretty good (200MB down, 10MB up). It's their cheapest business tier which is required if you want static IP addresses. I think it costs me $79 a month.
over by me they took over from timewarner so they have their infrastructure. we've always had static ips. i could probably get faster speeds if i use my cable modem.
(i am now using Mb instead of MB) if i pay 20 bucks more i can go from 200Mbps to 400Mbps
(i am now using Mb instead of MB) if i pay 20 bucks more i can go from 200Mbps to 400Mbps
Re: Steam DRM
By: MRO to Digital Man on Tue Sep 08 2020 05:15 pm
(i am now using Mb instead of MB) if i pay 20 bucks more i can go from
200Mbps to 400Mbps
Sounds similar to the service offering here. And yeah, I meant Mb (bits) when I too wrote MB before.
digital man
when i was writing MB i meant megabyte. sucks that my upload speed isnt even 2MB. i think it's because i'm in a heavily populated area.
On 9/10/2020 4:26 PM, MRO wrote:
when i was writing MB i meant megabyte. sucks that my upload speed
isnt even 2MB. i think it's because i'm in a heavily populated area.
Mine's not much more than that (20Mbps ~= 2.5MBps). Most users don't
use much upload, so ISPs use many more channels for download vs upload. You can always get a dedicated symmetric connection, but those aren't cheap. I get 200mbit down, 20 up.
when i was writing MB i meant megabyte. sucks that my upload speed
isnt even 2MB. i think it's because i'm in a heavily populated area.
i'm in a big city. i should have gigabit dammit!
I just moved to Marina in Monterey County and I now have access to gigabit if I want it, but it's through comsuck. I got 200mb to try them out, and they can't maintain that speed except for like 3am in the morning, so fuck them.
Internet in America is only just better than Australia, and I guarantee you Australia will switch places with us in the next few years.
well now i heard on the radio that in my state in kenosha [riotville] they are doing to do gigabit. but they are going to dig through people's yards and driveways via 'micro trenching'. they claim they can patch it up but people arent happy with it.
well now i heard on the radio that in my state in kenosha [riotville] they are doing to do gigabit. but they are going to dig through people's yards and driveways via 'micro trenching'. they claim they can patch it up but people arent happy with it.
There's an internet company in my area that does fiber (there are a couple) that recently did that down the street where I work. They had to dig small holes down through the sidewalk so they could run the fiber cable through, then patched the holes. Now there are round spaces with black concrete in them in the sidewalk.
On 9/29/2020 6:48 PM, MRO wrote:
well now i heard on the radio that in my state in kenosha [riotville]
they are doing to do gigabit. but they are going to dig through
people's yards and driveways via 'micro trenching'. they claim they
can patch it up but people arent happy with it.
From what I've read, regarding micro trenching, it hasn't been very
good in terms of reliability... a lot of need for re-runs, unless it's gotten better.
There's an internet company in my area that does fiber (there are a
couple) that recently did that down the street where I work. They had
to dig small holes down through the sidewalk so they could run the
fiber cable through, then patched the holes. Now there are round
spaces with black concrete in them in the sidewalk.
Does it look OK, or stupid, or ugly? Man if some company came in and fucked up my sidewalks I'd be pissed.
Re: Re: Steam DRM
By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Sep 30 2020 08:13 am
There's an internet company in my area that does fiber (there are a
couple) that recently did that down the street where I work.
They had to dig small holes down through the sidewalk so they could
run the fiber cable through, then patched the holes. Now
there are round spaces with black concrete in them in the sidewalk.
Does it look OK, or stupid, or ugly? Man if some company came in and fucked up my sidewalks I'd be pissed.
i guess google tried 'nano trenching' in lousville ky and it was a huge fail and it looks like shit. also repaving roads damaged the lines.
Re: Re: Steam DRM
By: MRO to Android8675 on Thu Oct 08 2020 05:09 pm
i guess google tried 'nano trenching' in lousville ky and it was a
huge fail and it looks like shit. also repaving roads damaged the
lines.
Whatever happened to that google wifi for all??
well now i heard on the radio that in my state in kenosha [riotville] they are doing to do gigabit. but they are going to dig
through people's yards and driveways via 'micro trenching'. they claim they can patch it up but people arent happy with it.
I'd be curious as to how that goes. I've heard of city municipalities opening their own fiber Internet Service for city residents and are able to offer deals like what Google Fiber was doing (1gb for like $30/month). I suspect if people were pushed just a bit around here we could convince the city gov to at least look into something like that.
I know any place considered "rural" should look into that I guess.
i guess google tried 'nano trenching' in lousville ky and it was a huge failure and it looks like shit. also repaving roads damaged the lines.
i guess the deeper trenches dont fuck up as bad due to tire wear, but it still looks like a black line of tar of whatever where they laid the fiber optics.
On 10/8/2020 3:09 PM, MRO wrote:
i guess google tried 'nano trenching' in lousville ky and it was a
huge failure and it looks like shit. also repaving roads damaged the
lines.
i guess the deeper trenches dont fuck up as bad due to tire wear, but
it still looks like a black line of tar of whatever where they laid
the fiber
optics.
fucked up my sidewalks I'd be pissed.
I think it looks somewhat ugly, but then, I'm not the type to really care so much about the appearance of the sidewalk near where I live/work. As long as people can walk across it, I guess it's doing it's job. Also, I think a sidewalk is public property rather than your own property - Utility
companies or the city may need to come do work on it if they need to drill for cables or a storm drain, etc.. I don't think the sidewalk is yours to do what you want with.
Whatever happened to that google wifi for all??
In contrast though, I see that kind of tar line on streets without
fiber, just to "repair" cracks/wear.
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