I just have a macbook air m4 with 512gb storage/16gb.
I wanted a mini but the laptop was drool worthy.


--- WWIV 5.9.03748[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

On 25 Jun 2025, Utopian Galt said the following...

I just have a macbook air m4 with 512gb storage/16gb.
I wanted a mini but the laptop was drool worthy.

I have an M2 MacBook Air with those same specs & it's still a powerhouse.

It does everything I need it to do & more. I use UTM to run a Windows 11 ARM virtual machine for anything I can't run on Mac (like Age of Empires or Age of Mythology on Steam).


Jay

... He who ploughs a straight furrow, is probably in a rut

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Northern Realms (21:3/110)

It does everything I need it to do & more. I use UTM to run a Windows
11 ARM virtual machine for anything I can't run on Mac (like Age of Empires or Age of Mythology on Steam).

How well does Win 11 arm work with x86 games? I've heard that the x86 compatibility in Win 11 arm isn't quite as reliable as rosetta 2 in MacOS, I'm interested in hearing about your experiences.

... Swap read error. You lose your core image.

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I just have a macbook air m4 with 512gb storage/16gb.
I wanted a mini but the laptop was drool worthy.

I don't think folks can go wrong with the M4 lineup... and its pretty easy to suggest hardware to people. But the base model - unless you NEED more RAM. Add Thunderbolt 4 (or 5 if PRO models) NVME SSDs for storage;

M4 Mac Mini
M4 Macbook Air
M4 Macbook Pro

And done... takes care of 85% of ppl.



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On 26 Jun 2025, kirkspragg said the following...

How well does Win 11 arm work with x86 games? I've heard that the x86 compatibility in Win 11 arm isn't quite as reliable as rosetta 2 in
MacOS, I'm interested in hearing about your experiences.

I've really only tried three games on the Win 11 ARM VM: Age of Mythology, Age of Empires II & Plants vs Zombies. It works well enough for these, I'm not really into heavily graphic intensive games so I can't really say how well it works for something like Call of Duty or whatever the current popular title is.


Jay

... Don't kiss an elephant on the lips today

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* Origin: Northern Realms (21:3/110)

Re: Re: the mac club
By: paulie420 to Utopian Galt on Thu Jun 26 2025 06:42 pm

I don't think folks can go wrong with the M4 lineup... and its pretty easy to suggest hardware to people. But the base model - unless you NEED more RAM.

I don't think they're upgradeable, are they? That's the thing I don't like about Apple's products these days.. If you want better specs, you can't upgrade it, you have to buy a whole new one.

Nightfox
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* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

BY: paulie420 (21:2/150)

|11p|09> |10I don't think folks can go wrong with the M4 lineup... and its pretty|07
|11p|09> |10easy to suggest hardware to people. But the base model - unless you NEED|07
|11p|09> |10more RAM. Add Thunderbolt 4 (or 5 if PRO models) NVME SSDs for storage;|07
|11p|09> |07
|11p|09> |10M4 Mac Mini|07
|11p|09> |10M4 Macbook Air|07
|11p|09> |10M4 Macbook Pro|07
|11p|09> |07
|11p|09> |10And done... takes care of 85% of ppl.|07
My plan is to get a 32gb mac mini pro with 2tb storage so I can play final fantasy 14 on it :)


--- WWIV 5.9.03748[Windows]
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I don't think folks can go wrong with the M4 lineup... and its pretty
easy to suggest hardware to people. But the base model - unless you NEED more RAM. Add Thunderbolt 4 (or 5 if PRO models) NVME SSDs for storage;

Agreed, I love my M4 Max to this degree that I purchased new xbox one game pads (x360 pads won't work with it) and started repackaging my current/modern windows games to wine or steam via wine if there is no native macos version and it all runs smooth like a silk!

I again can tell I have one computer that can pretend to be any computer and gaming console of today and past preferences and for a reasonable price!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
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I don't think they're upgradeable, are they? That's the thing I don't like about Apple's products these days.. If you want better specs, you can't upgrade it, you have to buy a whole new one.

Yep but the baseline + extra ram is still affordable and comparable to similar performance on PC for a rig that you'd consider 5 years life cycle, so that's still ok.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: the mac club
By: hollowone to Nightfox on Fri Jun 27 2025 12:04 pm

I don't think they're upgradeable, are they? That's the thing I don't
like about Apple's products these days.. If you want better specs, you
can't upgrade it, you have to buy a whole new one.

Yep but the baseline + extra ram is still affordable and comparable to similar performance on PC for a rig that you'd consider 5 years life cycle, so that's still ok.

In the past, I'd noticed Apple would charge a lot for RAM, and I could buy RAM for maybe half or 60% of Apple's cost elsewhere and upgrade it myself.. I imagine Apple probably charges a premium for RAM on their systems, and naturally, having them non-upgradeable means you need to pay Apple's prices for the RAM. I'm not totally convinced the decision to not make them upgradeable wasn't (at least partially) a decision by Apple to try to increase their profits by forcing you to buy their RAM upgrade rather than buy RAM elsewhere.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.28-Linux
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I don't think folks can go wrong with the M4 lineup... and its pretty to suggest hardware to people. But the base model - unless you NEED m RAM.

I don't think they're upgradeable, are they? That's the thing I don't like about Apple's products these days.. If you want better specs, you can't upgrade it, you have to buy a whole new one.

Well... they're not; with an asterisk. For the M4 Mac Mini/Mac Mini Pro, Apple did use a proprietary SSD - but several engineers have reversed them and you can buy $300 2TB SSD upgrades... the RAM would take an engineer, tho; solder job from hell. So no, they aren't easily upgradable - HOWEVER, with Thunderbolt 4 (Or 5 on the Pro models), just grab an external hub and you can get faster speeds from an additional NVME SSD, so; they don't NEED to be upgraded...

For ME, the base M4 Mac Mini will last 5 years... 16GB RAM is fine; and if needed just spec more at purchase - and grab your 10year hardware and just upgrade the Mini in 5 years..

Thats my plan, anyhow; but... say for a dev box - I can't think of a better value than a $499 M4 machine.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I don't think folks can go wrong with the M4 lineup... and its pretty easy to suggest hardware to people. But the base model - unless you NEE more RAM. Add Thunderbolt 4 (or 5 if PRO models) NVME SSDs for storage;

My plan is to get a 32gb mac mini pro with 2tb storage so I can play
final fantasy 14 on it :)

Don't pay Apple for that 2TB, tho; I trust the iBoff 2TB SSDs @ $280 - if you research them, I think you'll see that they've reverse engineered the Apple NVME SSDs really nicely - no corners cut...

I don't NEED 32GB RAM - and I've went w/ the stock M4 Mini... that being said, I think I would benefit from the $1300 Pro version a lot. 24GB RAM, and way more CPU/GPU...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Agreed, I love my M4 Max to this degree that I purchased new xbox one
game pads (x360 pads won't work with it) and started repackaging my current/modern windows games to wine or steam via wine if there is no native macos version and it all runs smooth like a silk!

I again can tell I have one computer that can pretend to be any computer and gaming console of today and past preferences and for a reasonable price!

I know - I was jealous when you got the Pro. (Max??? ... I think Pro...) I can still use Parallels, or UTM, but I'm sure your machine does so a lot better than the base model.

Its so damn cute, too - everything you need and nothing more. Theres a place for the Studio models, I just don't think its in my house - yet.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

In the past, I'd noticed Apple would charge a lot for RAM

Apple's new STUPID $ for RAM/SSD model is freaking stupid IMO. I guess they know they can do it - and they DO do it; who am I to say its stupid... but it sucks.

They overcharge x4$ (at least)... so flipping stupid. They could easily use standard NVME SSDs with zero loss of performance... and I'd prefer any footprint changes to allow for slotted RAM - but I guess Apple knows best.

:/ Stupid IMO.
They could be SO MUCH better - but yea... that wouldn't be in Apple financials best interest, so...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
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Re: Re: the mac club
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Fri Jun 27 2025 07:29 pm

I don't think they're upgradeable, are they? That's the thing I don't

Well... they're not; with an asterisk. For the M4 Mac Mini/Mac Mini Pro, Apple did use a proprietary SSD - but several engineers have reversed them and you can buy $300 2TB SSD upgrades... the RAM would take an engineer, tho; solder job from hell. So no, they aren't easily upgradable - HOWEVER, with Thunderbolt 4 (Or 5 on the Pro models), just grab an external hub and you can get faster speeds from an additional NVME SSD, so; they don't NEED to be upgraded...

The Thunderbolt and NVME SSD is good for storage, but still it sounds like you can't upgrade the RAM easily if you wanted to..

For ME, the base M4 Mac Mini will last 5 years... 16GB RAM is fine; and if needed just spec more at purchase - and grab your 10year hardware and just upgrade the Mini in 5 years..

I've been using 32GB RAM since 20212, and recently upgraded to 64GB a few months ago.. though honestly the 64GB might be a little overkill. Also I bought a new GPU and swapped in a few years ago, as well as a bigger m.2 SSD. I like that I could do those upgrades without having to buy a whole new PC. I find it hard to want to buy an Apple machine since they can't really be upgraded very easily.

Nightfox
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Nightfox wrote to paulie420 <=-

I've been using 32GB RAM since 20212, and recently upgraded to 64GB a
few months ago.. though honestly the 64GB might be a little overkill.

I have a cobbled-together homelab, and bought a 10th gen i7 with 64GB
of RAM. In thinking about it, I could have easily run a type 2
hypervisor like Virtualbox, run the BBS off my desktop and get rid of a
ton of crap... I barely hit 16 GB of RAM used in this box.


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In the past, I'd noticed Apple would charge a lot for RAM, and I could
buy RAM for maybe half or 60% of Apple's cost elsewhere and upgrade it myself..

The reason for this was mostly to dis-incentivise nonstandard configurations.

Dell, HP, IBM, etc also charged well above market rate for RAM, HDD, etc upgrades.

For the volume of machines these companies produce, their internal processes are optimised to the eyeballs, antithetical to the idea of a built-to-spec PC. The cost to customise your machine isn't just the parts, it's also the labour of someone to take your unit off the assembly or fulfillment line, change the parts, re-run burn-in and other QA steps, etc. Compare that with slapping a shipping label on a ready-to-deliver system, and flinging it into a FedEx truck.

It's easy to be cynical, but the reality is just boring old economics of scale.

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Re: Re: the mac club
By: RetroSwim to Nightfox on Sat Jun 28 2025 08:42 am

In the past, I'd noticed Apple would charge a lot for RAM, and I could
buy RAM for maybe half or 60% of Apple's cost elsewhere and upgrade it
myself..

The reason for this was mostly to dis-incentivise nonstandard configurations.

Dell, HP, IBM, etc also charged well above market rate for RAM, HDD, etc upgrades.

That's true..

For the volume of machines these companies produce, their internal processes are optimised to the eyeballs, antithetical to the idea of a built-to-spec PC. The cost to customise your machine isn't just the parts, it's also the labour of someone to take your unit off the assembly or fulfillment line, change the parts, re-run burn-in and other QA steps, etc. Compare that with slapping a shipping label on a ready-to-deliver system, and flinging it into a FedEx truck.

I suppose that makes sense.

One thing Apple would also do is, they made their Macs able to detect when you're using non-Apple RAM. So if you chose to save money by upgrading the RAM yourself, the Mac would have a message on startup saying something like "You're using non-Apple RAM, which might cause issues and performance to degrade" or similar. They want you to give them your money. But at least the Mac would still work with RAM that you put in yourself.

Nightfox
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* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

NVME SSD, so; they don't NEED to be upgraded...

For ME, the base M4 Mac Mini will last 5 years... 16GB RAM is fine; and
if needed just spec more at purchase - and grab your 10year hardware and just upgrade the Mini in 5 years..

That's the point. back in 2010-2013 changing slow HDD to SSD inside macbooks and adding RAM (often slower than what they offered, but less expensive) was a significant boost.

Now the 1TB SSD + 36GB RAM Mac Book Pro with M4 Max costs reasonable and I personally don't see any need to upgrade it within its life cycle.

so ideologically, of course it's a problem and I support the idea of having macs being more open platforms again.. but if they provide right hardware for the right price that can last years longer than regular PC I can skip that fight for a moment for more open software platform and them to finally learn how to support developers properly as they suck at that bigger time than any RAM upgrade considered here.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I know - I was jealous when you got the Pro. (Max??? ... I think Pro...)
I can still use Parallels, or UTM, but I'm sure your machine does so a
lot better than the base model.

I have M4 Max, and quite a pimped up one tbh :)

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

RetroSwim wrote to Nightfox <=-

It's easy to be cynical, but the reality is just boring old economics
of scale.

I miss the days of my local corner computer store in the '90s -
advertizing in MicroTimes or Computer Currents, and competing with the
store down the road.

You could pick the motherboard, the case, video card, and they'd have it together in a day. Throw in one of those pirated copies of Windows and
MS-DOS, pick a soft or clicky keyboard, and you're good to go.

They were a great way of building linux-friendly systems before
hardware support was wide-spread.



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* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

hollowone wrote to paulie420 <=-

That's the point. back in 2010-2013 changing slow HDD to SSD inside macbooks and adding RAM (often slower than what they offered, but less expensive) was a significant boost.

My department did that exact upgrade a couple of hundred times back
around that time -- our engineering department paid for the upgrades
and we created a drop-in assembly line - schedule a time, drop into an
IT lounge, image the hard drive, pop the case, upgrade the memory/add
an SSD, and restore the image.

It was a real crowd-pleaser - and we ended up with a bunch of 750gb
SATAs that came in handy elsewhere...



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

My department did that exact upgrade a couple of hundred times back
around that time -- our engineering department paid for the upgrades
and we created a drop-in assembly line - schedule a time, drop into an
IT lounge, image the hard drive, pop the case, upgrade the memory/add
an SSD, and restore the image.

It was a real crowd-pleaser - and we ended up with a bunch of 750gb
SATAs that came in handy elsewhere...

Well. good for ya back then :) not a business case today, anymore.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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Re: Re: the mac club
By: poindexter FORTRAN to RetroSwim on Sun Jun 29 2025 11:15 am

I miss the days of my local corner computer store in the '90s - advertizing in MicroTimes or Computer Currents, and competing with the store down the road.

You could pick the motherboard, the case, video card, and they'd have it together in a day. Throw in one of those pirated copies of Windows and MS-DOS, pick a soft or clicky keyboard, and you're good to go.

They were a great way of building linux-friendly systems before hardware support was wide-spread.

I miss stores like that too. Normally I didn't have them build it for me though; I'd buy parts at those stores and put it together myself. I liked having stores like that to physically go to and buy from.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: the mac club
By: Nightfox to paulie420 on Fri Jun 27 2025 22:15:45

I've been using 32GB RAM since 20212...

You'd think RAM would be measured in googleplex by then.
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