On 03-31-22 22:39, Oleg Nazaroff <=-
spoke to Ward Dossche about Re: Ukraine National Ant <=-

Never underestimate guerilla tactics of a
people fighting for their own territory ...
it's a guaranteed loss ... everybody who
tried, lost.

Not Russia. Never ;)

"What about" Afghanistan? How many years did Russia try to control it
before they gave up and went home?

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)



... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 02:04:43, 01 Apr 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 31.03.2022 13:02

ak>> I say you again -- Putin needs alive Ukrainians who loves
ak>> him. Dead Ukrainians are useless for him, and their
ak>> relatives would probably hate him. Therefore if Zelensky
ak>> wanted to save lives he would not order to fight in this
ak>> useless, unequal war.
WD> Did you just write it is a useless war?8-)

Of course. If nobody wants to kill you (if you don't shoot at him),
deprive your freedom, sovereignty, occupy your country, annex it to
Russia... in this case there no reasons to fight until last soldier. But
if you start killing such an invader you open rivers of blood and
destruction. A politician must have at least a hundred grams of brain.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 31.03.2022 13:10

ak>> Most funny that both sides are going to set up courts for
ak>> war criminals
ak>>;-)
WD> There's only one such by the UN sanctioned court to do this ...
WD> it's not in Russia, it's not in Ukraine ...

When the US wanted to put Noriega into an American prison they spat on
the UN and Panama's sovereignty taken together. They did in Panama
whatever they want, as if it was an American shed.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Never underestimate guerilla tactics of a
people fighting for their own territory ...
it's a guaranteed loss ... everybody who
tried, lost.

Not Russia. Never ;)

"What about" Afghanistan? How many years did Russia try to control it before they gave up and went home?

And do not forget the border wars with China ... probably erased from 'official' Russian history ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

When the US wanted to put Noriega into an American prison they spat on
the UN and Panama's sovereignty taken together. They did in Panama
whatever they want, as if it was an American shed.

How about Skripal and Navalny?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Well, if you don't repair your river dam and your land becomes flooded
-- who must be blamed -- you or the water?

I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.

Good politicians always prevent escalation,

It's just a wee bit beyond politics now.

but the Ukrainian politicians have been built it up for 8 years.

Russian propaganda has built it up for 8 years, probably more.

Now they are standing in shit up to their noses and Russia rolls
the wave.

Russia has assaulted the men, women and children of Ukraine and destroyed much in the country saying they were liberating Ukraine from nazis. Of course there is no truth in that, it is all just propaganda.

Or some nonsense about the russian language, also nothing but propaganda.

Or some other nonsense about cutting water off from the people but that's not how it is and it is just more propaganda.

Russia really messed up. Messed up bad this time.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Are you suggesting that Ukraine bombed it's own hospital?

It was the hospital in the Russian speaking town. Ukrainian nationalists
hate Russians as the German Nazi hated Jews. So absolutely I don't
wonder that they can be responsible, and for me it is the most probable version.

More propaganda. The russian tv you are watching is full of it, and so are you.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Putin will kill and destroy to get what he wants.

No, no. His aim is to set up a friendly Ukraine. A constant occupation
has no sense. So he needs many loyal Ukrainians, that's why his
propaganda tells that he is a liberator from the national-fascists.

His aim is to re-establish the USSR of old. That's not going to happen.

Instead of propaganda, why don't we just speak honestly? The truth is not so scary.

The love and/or disdain is on full display for the whole world to
see.

Well, the western propaganda is much stronger than the Russian one. And
in addition the latter has been shut up.

The west is not propagandized as you are, and in addition the latter has wound up the propaganda in such a large way it's beyond fiction.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Of course. If nobody wants to kill you (if you don't shoot at him),

Of course this is exactly what Russia has done. They amassed an army of ~200,000 troops on the border of Ukraine and then invaded and fired the first shots.

These arguments you present are economical with the truth.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 31.03.2022 20:35

ak>>>> IMHO, it is a historical issue. "Ukraine" was
ak>>>> derived from the Russian word Okraina (a border
ak>>>> region/area). One time it was really a border
ak>>>> region of Russia. You probably can say that you
ak>>>> live in the New York
DP>>> But at that time "Russia" was something with capital in
DP>>> Kyiv:)
ak>> In different times Russia had different capitals.
ak>> Ukrainians also had the capital in Warszawa for many
ak>> centuries.;)
LL> Kyiv was there first. For both Ukrainians and Russians. And
LL> maybe ??that is the key to a peace deal. The reunification of
LL> Ukraine/Russia as one. With Kyiv as its capital. Just like the
LL> days of old.:)

At least one lesson should be learnt: the policy towards the nations and languages in a country should be wise and careful. Even in case if you
have at your disposal gangs marching along the streets with flaming torches.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Dale,

On Friday April 01 2022 02:03, you wrote to Oleg Nazaroff:

Not Russia. Never ;)

"What about" Afghanistan? How many years did Russia try to control it before they gave up and went home?

Don't feed the trolls...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

���ண� �६�窠, Dale Shipp.
�� ��ᠫ� 01.04.22 2:03:

"What about" Afghanistan? How many years
did Russia try to control it before they
gave up and went home?

This is really different, from the very beginning. Russia has no goal (and it has never been precisely defined) to capture at all costs.

--
2:50/700 aka ex.2:5020/612
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: 27 ��� � ����... ��-�-�� �� �������... (2:50/700)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Thursday March 31 2022 10:36, you wrote to me:

But at that time "Russia" was something with capital in Kyiv:)

In different times Russia had different capitals. Ukrainians also had

"Russia" at some point was some country ruled by guys from Scandinavia :)

the capital in Warszawa for many centuries. ;)

And Russia was a part on Mongol state.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Alexander,

[..]

In different times Russia had different capitals.
Ukrainians also had the capital in Warszawa for many
centuries.;)

Kyiv was there first. For both Ukrainians and Russians. And
maybe ??that is the key to a peace deal. The reunification of
Ukraine/Russia as one. With Kyiv as its capital. Just like the
days of old.:)

At least one lesson should be learnt: the policy towards the nations and languages in a country should be wise and careful. Even in case if you have at your disposal gangs marching along the streets with flaming torches.

Europe is kind of a strange place. Almost all countries are divided
by language. Far different than places such as India, China, and other
areas. When the USA began, Benjamin Franklin wanted the USA to have
a national language. His suggestion was German. The resolution failed
by one vote. Since then, no effort has been made to have a national
language.

With no national or official language, people have freedom to say
anything they want. Even if it makes no sense.

Which might explain why we saw "gangs marching along the streets
with flaming torches" in Charlottesville, West Virginia while shouting
Nazi slogans (in German) when Donald Trump was president.

--Lee

--
Love! Not hate! Makes America great!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 01.04.2022 10:05

AI> Or some other nonsense about cutting water off from the people
AI> but that's not how it is and it is just more propaganda.

It depends how you use the Russia's propaganda. If you want to believe
that no damage was done by cutting the fresh water channel you should
cite the Russia's propaganda telling that Crimea becomes even better
without Ukrainian water. Check it out in Wikipedia: :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal
-----Beginning of the citation-----
According to official Russian statistics, the Crimean agricultural
industry fully overcame the consequences of blocking the North Crimean
Canal and crop yields grew by a factor of 1.5 from 2013 by 2016.[7] The reported rapid growth in agricultural production in the Crimea is due to
the fact that, with the help of subsidies of the order of 2-3 billion
rubles a year from the budget of the Russian Federation, agricultural producers of Crimea were able to increase the fleet of agricultural machinery.[8][9][10]

These official statistics contrast with reports of a massive shrinkage
in the area under cultivation in Crimea, from 130,000 hectares in 2013
to just 14,000 in 2017,[11] and an empty canal and a nearly dry
reservoir resulting in widespread water shortages,[12][13][3] with water
only being available for three to five hours a day in 2021.[13] That
same year, the New York Times cited senior American officials as saying
that securing Crimea's water supply could be an objective of a possible incursion by Russia into Ukraine.[14][3]
----- The end of the citation -----

;-\

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Or some other nonsense about cutting water off from the people
but that's not how it is and it is just more propaganda.

It depends how you use the Russia's propaganda.

I don't use Russia's proaganda. Why would I? Russia has proved itself unreliable, a liar.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi Alan Ianson!
I read your message on 4-Apr-2022

Or some other nonsense about cutting water off from the people
but that's not how it is and it is just more propaganda.

It depends how you use the Russia's propaganda.

I don't use Russia's proaganda. Why would I? Russia has proved
itself unreliable, a liar.

But very often we use that information we like. Fot instance - Russian troops retreated from a village and killed its inhabitans!!! Ah! Cool! Like it! ;=)

Bye Alan!
alexander koryagin
fido7.su.pol 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.12.0 - akReformator_lx}>=-

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

I don't use Russia's proaganda. Why would I? Russia has proved
itself unreliable, a liar.

But very often we use that information we like.

This is not a sitcom on TV. The truth is important.

Fot instance - Russian troops
retreated from a village and killed its inhabitans!!!

Do you doubt that? Russia has been killing civilians since the invasion began as they did in other places like Syria. There is no plausible deniability for Russia anymore.

Ah! Cool! Like it! ;=)

Nobody likes it but it is the truth and that is important.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi Alan Ianson!
I read your message on 4-Apr-2022

I don't use Russia's proaganda. Why would I? Russia has proved
itself unreliable, a liar.

But very often we use that information we like.

This is not a sitcom on TV. The truth is important.

Fot instance - Russian troops retreated from a village and killed
its inhabitans!!!

Do you doubt that? Russia has been killing civilians since the
invasion began as they did in other places like Syria. There is no plausible deniability for Russia anymore.

Ah! Cool! Like it! ;=)

Nobody likes it but it is the truth and that is important.

The Bacha provocation has been done by the same people who shot people on Maidan square in Kiev in 2014, No moral at all.

Bye Alan!
alexander koryagin
fido7.su.pol 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.12.0 - akReformator_lx}>=-

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Please Alan, don't feed any of those disgusting human beings!

And please don't invite them to any other echo, it's bad enough that they have managed to infest this echo.

// The Moderator


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Alexander Koryagin -> Alan Ianson skrev 2022-04-04 11:56:

Hi Alan Ianson!
I read your message on 4-Apr-2022

-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.12.0 - akReformator_lx}>=-

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Interesting. I guess Tommi too is all for free speech... 8-)



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 01.04.2022 10:13

AI>>> Putin will kill and destroy to get what he wants.

ak>> No, no. His aim is to set up a friendly Ukraine. A constant
ak>> occupation has no sense. So he needs many loyal Ukrainians, that's
ak>> why his propaganda tells that he is a liberator from the national-
ak>> fascists.

AI> His aim is to re-establish the USSR of old. That's not going to
AI> happen.

AI> Instead of propaganda, why don't we just speak honestly? The truth
AI> is not so scary.

I know only one thing -- this invasion would not have been possible
without Ukraine authority's help. 8 years it was perfectly clear that
Russia would not allow Ukraine to solve Donbass problem using military
force. And for any adequate ruler it was clear that the Minsk agreements should be implemented and concessions be made.

But Zlensky is under a full control of the ultra-nationalists, and they
didn't allow him to do any concessions and peace with Donbass.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello, alexander!

Monday April 11 2022 11:10, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

I know only one thing -- this invasion would not have been possible without Ukraine authority's help. 8 years it was perfectly clear that Russia would not allow Ukraine to solve Donbass problem using military
force. And for any adequate ruler it was clear that the Minsk
agreements should be implemented and concessions be made.

Russia was always using internal disputes in our former republics together with demagogic rhetoric to increase it's influence.
Remember how GRU sent Chechen fighters to Abkhazia because Russia was trying to get Georgia under it's control?
DNR/LNR was just an operation to destabilize Ukraine.

Russia was never going to follow Minsk agreements, eveyone knew that.

But Zlensky is under a full control of the ultra-nationalists, and
they didn't allow him to do any concessions and peace with Donbass.

It's a fake news, ultra-nationalist parties lost last elections, they were already marginal.
But now, during the war, thanks to Russia help - they became a real force because they are ready to die while fighting Russian forces.
They became a heroes, because they didn't surrender even to elite Chechen forces.
Mariupol became their Stalingrad.
Puting created new strong ideology for new Ukranian state, ideology of resistance to new "Russian empire" where Ukranina slavic people are being killed my Chechens, Buryats and Dagestanis. This is what ultra-nationalists were waiting for and what they finally got.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Instead of propaganda, why don't we just speak honestly? The truth
is not so scary.

I know only one thing -- this invasion would not have been possible
without Ukraine authority's help.

The Ukraine authority did not invade any nation. Russia did.

8 years it was perfectly clear that Russia would not allow Ukraine to solve Donbass problem using military
force.

So you think a Russian invasion of Ukraine solves anything?

It does not. It has now mired Russia in an ugly mess that I don't know how it will get itself out of.

And for any adequate ruler it was clear that the Minsk agreements
should be implemented and concessions be made.

Russia has no interest in Minsk agreements.

But Zlensky is under a full control of the ultra-nationalists, and they didn't allow him to do any concessions and peace with Donbass.

That is a false narrative. Zelensky is not an ultra-nationalist.


We really should move this topic to an appropriate area. I suggest..

WHAT'S_HOT! or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Do you see those areas in your list?

It's not that I don't want to communicate with you it's just because we are off topic in here. If we move these threads to another area we can freely talk about these things without disturbing this area.

Those are just suggestions, I am open to going to any other area where this topic can be freely discussed.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

It's a fake news, ultra-nationalist parties lost last elections, they were already marginal.

How do you feel about moving these discussions (about the Russian invasion) to another area?

I ask because of the pushback I have received to my own posts from the moderator (and others) in this area calling some posters trolls. That's an incorrect assessment I think but we are off topic for this area.

I suggest WHAT'S_HOT! or COFFEE_KLATSCH but I am open to moving these threads to any area that would work. Do you have those areas available to you, or do you have a better area that we could move too?

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Alan!

Monday April 11 2022 08:06, you wrote to me:

How do you feel about moving these discussions (about the Russian invasion) to another area?

No problem for me :)

I ask because of the pushback I have received to my own posts from the moderator (and others) in this area calling some posters trolls.
That's an incorrect assessment I think but we are off topic for this
area.

I am just trying to show that we have different opinions in Russia about current events.

And for sure, those discussions are very offtopic for echo about Fidonews.

I suggest WHAT'S_HOT! or COFFEE_KLATSCH but I am open to moving these threads to any area that would work. Do you have those areas available
to you, or do you have a better area that we could move too?

DDR_KITSCH is a very good place for any political discussions about events is Eastern Europe.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

But Zlensky is under a full control of the ultra-nationalists, and they didn't allow him to do any concessions and peace with Donbass.

Aw c'mon Alexander, onyone with at least half a brain understands that the whole Donbas-controverse is Russian-fed and Russian-started in a carefully planned long-term strategy to re-take the whole of Ukraine and annex it.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

It's not that I don't want to communicate with you it's just because we
are off topic in here. If we move these threads to another area we can freely talk about these things without disturbing this area.

This echo is carried on virtually any Fidonet-system, well ... not really, but a lot.

To me it's a good source of fake-news from the St.Petersburg troll factory ... some people even believe it. I think it's important to see and understand the nonsense which goes around ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

DDR_KITSCH is a very good place for any political discussions about
events is Eastern Europe.

I think nobody really gives a shite about yet another echo ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

This echo is carried on virtually any Fidonet-system, well ... not really, but a lot.

It is likely one of the oldest and most long running of our echo areas and can be added by any nodes who would like to be connected.

I have been told (more than once) by Bjorn "Don't feed the trolls" so at least he does want the discussion here, or maybe he just wants a one sided discussion, I'm not sure.

To me it's a good source of fake-news from the St.Petersburg troll factory ... some people even believe it. I think it's important to see and understand the nonsense which goes around ...

I agree. We just need to find a place for these discussions that is not off topic. I suggest WHAT'S_HOT!

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

How do you feel about moving these discussions (about the Russian
invasion) to another area?

No problem for me :)

I am just trying to show that we have different opinions in Russia about current events.

Yes, myself included.

And for sure, those discussions are very offtopic for echo about Fidonews.

I agree it doesn't fit the FIDONEWS area. I suggest WHAT'S_HOT!, it's a fairly old area that hasn't been used much recently and could use traffic. :)

DDR_KITSCH is a very good place for any political discussions about events is Eastern Europe.

I don't ever recall seeing that area but I will do a %list at a few links and see if I can find that area and lnk if I do.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alan Ianson wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

To me it's a good source of fake-news from the St.Petersburg troll factory ... some people even believe it. I think it's important to see and

understand

the nonsense which goes around ...

I agree. We just need to find a place for these discussions that
is not off topic. I suggest WHAT'S_HOT!

I suggest YOU'RE_WASTING_YOUR_TIME.



... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 11.04.2022 11:16

ak>> I know only one thing -- this invasion would not have been
ak>> possible without Ukraine authority's help. 8 years it was
ak>> perfectly clear that Russia would not allow Ukraine to solve
ak>> Donbass problem using military force. And for any adequate ruler
ak>> it was clear that the Minsk agreements should be implemented and
ak>> concessions be made.

DP> Russia was always using internal disputes in our former republics
DP> together with demagogic rhetoric to increase it's influence.
DP> Remember how GRU sent Chechen fighters to Abkhazia because Russia
DP> was trying to get Georgia under it's control? DNR/LNR was just an
DP> operation to destabilize Ukraine.

Abkhazia left Georgia the same way as Crimea. Georgian radicals came to
power and the republic declared separation in 1994. It is a usual thing
when some radical idiots create havoc in a multinational country --
separatism is inevitable. Russia had a very modest role in this conflict.

DP> Russia was never going to follow Minsk agreements, eveyone knew
DP> that.

First of all Ukraine refused to do amnesty for the rebels, make an
autonomy for the Donbass region. Russia was Donbass people defender but
it incorrect to say that Russian troops for 8 years have defended
Donbass. Russian troops entered Donbass this spring.

ak>> But Zlensky is under a full control of the ultra-nationalists, and
ak>> they didn't allow him to do any concessions and peace with
ak>> Donbass.

DP> It's a fake news, ultra-nationalist parties lost last elections,
DP> they were already marginal. But now, during the war, thanks to

It is not necessary to have majority if you use violence and threats.
Well, it is like a criminal gang can hold in its grip a whole city. A
common people know that if their conduct would wrong they will be
visited by.

DP> Russia help - they became a real force because they are ready to
DP> die while fighting Russian forces. They became a heroes, because
DP> they didn't surrender even to elite Chechen forces. Mariupol became
DP> their Stalingrad. Puting created new strong ideology for new

Ukrainian nationalist have no pity for Mariupol just because there are
too many pro Russian people have always lived there. The "defence" of
Mariupol in reality is a revenge to its citizens.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 11.04.2022 17:55

AI>>> Instead of propaganda, why don't we just speak honestly? The
AI>>> truth is not so scary.
ak>> I know only one thing -- this invasion would not have been
ak>> possible without Ukraine authority's help.

AI> The Ukraine authority did not invade any nation. Russia did.

There is no a single nation in Ukraine. Better to say it consists of two nations. If a Russian person was listed as a Ukrainian it doesn't make
him an Ukrainian. Russia 8 years defended Russian people and does it
now, although I admit, in a rather crazy way.

ak>> 8 years it was perfectly clear that Russia would not allow Ukraine
ak>> to solve Donbass problem using military force.

AI> So you think a Russian invasion of Ukraine solves anything?

After so much spilt blood I don't think that Ukraine will be remained
the same as it was. There will be either a federalization of Ukraine, or
the eastern part of Ukraine will separate completely in case if the
authority in Kiev continue their foolish hard-edged policy. But peace
will be.

AI> It does not. It has now mired Russia in an ugly mess that I don't
AI> know how it will get itself out of.

ak>> And for any adequate ruler it was clear that the Minsk agreements
ak>> should be implemented and concessions be made.

AI> Russia has no interest in Minsk agreements.

Russia was not a side of the conflict until this string.

ak>> But Zlensky is under a full control of the ultra-nationalists, and
ak>> they didn't allow him to do any concessions and peace with
ak>> Donbass.

AI> That is a false narrative. Zelensky is not an ultra-nationalist.

He is under their control and cannot do anything against their will.

AI> We really should move this topic to an appropriate area. I
AI> suggest..
AI> WHAT'S_HOT! or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Do you see those areas in your list?

Tommy has it in his gate. Although it is better to compare fidonet as a dehydrated land, where all the remaining fishes have gathered in a few
small pools. No rules in every pool. Our topic is probably offtopic, but
such things have happing in this area for at least 10 years. ;)

AI> It's not that I don't want to communicate with you it's just
AI> because we are off topic in here. If we move these threads to
AI> another area we can freely talk about these things without
AI> disturbing this area.

AI> Those are just suggestions, I am open to going to any other area
AI> where this topic can be freely discussed.

Theoretically, for debating there is "debate" area. But probably all the
fish from there went in this pool. ;-)

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 11.04.2022 23:53

ak>> But Zlensky is under a full control of the
ak>> ultra-nationalists, and they didn't allow him to do any
ak>> concessions and peace with Donbass.
WD> Aw c'mon Alexander, onyone with at least half a brain
WD> understands that the whole Donbas-controverse is Russian-fed
WD> and Russian-started in a carefully planned long-term strategy
WD> to re-take the whole of Ukraine and annex it. \%/@rd

Why it has not happened before 2014 coup?

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

It is a usual thing
when some radical idiots create havoc in a multinational country -- separatism is inevitable. Russia had a very modest role in this conflict.

I call that hogwash. We (Belgium) have our radicals too, there have been historical language and economic differences and the international press will jump on it come election time, but no people get killed, some name calling ... a bit like a football game.

Then last summer when torrential rains devastated one region killing hundreds and leaving tens of thousands homeless, the other language community was the first to respond in such a way that relief organisations asked not to send anything anymore because they couldn't handle the volume of aid (clothing, food...). For months construction workers on their week-ends off went to work there for free to help rebuild ... so where are the Russians helping to rebuild Ukraine? Where are the relief funds? The food? Clothing? The only thing Russia has sent is violence, death, destruction, rape, thieving, wiping out entire cities...

A small post-office just across the border in Belarus was used to send 2-3 tonnes of looted objects (computers, TVs, household appliances, clothing, ...) a day to somewhere Russia ... stolen by Russian soldiers ... And Belarus is not distrubiting Zelenski-propaganda ... just locals complaining they could not get inside their post-office anymore.

First of all Ukraine refused to do amnesty for the rebels, make an
autonomy for the Donbass region. Russia was Donbass people defender but
it incorrect to say that Russian troops for 8 years have defended
Donbass. Russian troops entered Donbass this spring.

On July 17 2014 it was a Russian weapons system operated by a Russian military crew that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight 17. Please do not insult people here by denying, it's an established fact, even the names of the Russian individuals are known. Russian communication systems were (and probably still are) so primative they could be picked-up and recorded ...

There were already Russian troops in that area and they were taking part in hostilities ...

Ukrainian nationalist have no pity for Mariupol just because there are
too many pro Russian people have always lived there. The "defence" of Mariupol in reality is a revenge to its citizens.

Oh dear ... there's definitely a mall connect in your brain if you truly believe that. Do you make a living distributing this nonsense?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello, Alan!

Monday April 11 2022 14:56, you wrote to me:

DDR_KITSCH is a very good place for any political discussions about
events is Eastern Europe.

I don't ever recall seeing that area but I will do a %list at a few
links and see if I can find that area and lnk if I do.

I just created it myself :)

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry,

I just created it myself :)

Now to get it distributed and people linked-up ... the fun will be gone ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Tuesday April 12 2022 09:34, you wrote to me:

Abkhazia left Georgia the same way as Crimea. Georgian radicals came

So Like Chechnya left Russia?

Donbass. Russian troops entered Donbass this spring.

Same lies again. Who's gonna believe you now?

It is not necessary to have majority if you use violence and threats.

Violence and threats is the core of Putin's regime.

Ukrainian nationalist have no pity for Mariupol just because there are
too many pro Russian people have always lived there. The "defence" of
Mariupol in reality is a revenge to its citizens.

Mariupol is destroyed by Russian forces.

At this moment thousands of Ukranians are leaving Russia via Russia/EU border, the don't want to stay here.
This is how we "saved" them.



Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Alan Ianson wrote to Dmitry Protasoff <=-

I suggest WHAT'S_HOT! or COFFEE_KLATSCH but I am open to moving these threads to any area that would work. Do you have those areas available
to you, or do you have a better area that we could move too?

I'd suggest WHAT'S_HOT. COFFEE_KLATSCH has the potential to be a friendly hangout once again.



... The falcon hears the falconer. Infrastructure, check. Wetware, check.
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

I'd suggest WHAT'S_HOT. COFFEE_KLATSCH has the potential to be a friendly hangout once again.

I'm going nowhere ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 12.04.2022 15:09

ak>> Abkhazia left Georgia the same way as Crimea. Georgian radicals
ak>> came
DP> So Like Chechnya left Russia?

Yes. But note Chechnya actually had got its independence in Yeltsin time
after the first Chechen war. But then there was a row of terror acts
across Russia and after them the second Chechen war started and they
lost their gains.

ak>> Donbass. Russian troops entered Donbass this spring.
DP> Same lies again. Who's gonna believe you now?

I said "Russian troops", not Russian "polite green men".

ak>> It is not necessary to have majority if you use violence and
ak>> threats.

DP> Violence and threats is the core of Putin's regime.

Ukrainian ultra-natinalists are not better. Putin at least doesn't
glorify Nazi WW2 collaborators. Do you know what is the difference
between Hitler and Putin? The first said it openly -- we conquer
countries for place for our race, other nations should be either
eliminated or serve Germany, Jews should be used for making soap. But
all Putin's rhetoric is perfectly good, just as taken from the
chivalrous novels. No occupation, but liberation, fighting with
neonazism, defending justice, Russians who are humiliated; the current operation is a noble, heroic matter. Tell me at least one bad Putin's
slogan which can mark him as a fascist.

ak>> Ukrainian nationalist have no pity for Mariupol just because there
ak>> are too many pro Russian people have always lived there.
ak>> The "defence" of Mariupol in reality is a revenge to its citizens.

DP> Mariupol is destroyed by Russian forces.

And I am sure its citizens did not ask defend them by setting up machine
guns in their flat windows.

DP> At this moment thousands of Ukranians are leaving Russia via Russia
DP> /EU border, the don't want to stay here. This is how we "saved"
DP> them.

Of course any place in the world is better than a city "defended" by
Ukrainian nationalists. They know well that the more destruction be made
the better. They hope the city will not be pro Russian after that.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Wednesday April 13 2022 10:07, you wrote to me:

So Like Chechnya left Russia?

Yes. But note Chechnya actually had got its independence in Yeltsin
time after the first Chechen war. But then there was a row of terror

But Chechen war in 1994 was started exactly the same way as current invasion into Ukraine.
At first they sent there "volunteers" which failed and then started full scale invasion as a "surprise attack".
I still remember that day..

Donbass. Russian troops entered Donbass this spring.

Same lies again. Who's gonna believe you now?

I said "Russian troops", not Russian "polite green men".

There is no difference.

Violence and threats is the core of Putin's regime.

Ukrainian ultra-natinalists are not better. Putin at least doesn't

No, they are just different.

glorify Nazi WW2 collaborators. Do you know what is the difference

He glorify soviet era which was a disaster.

between Hitler and Putin? The first said it openly -- we conquer

Putin never served in army, btw.

countries for place for our race, other nations should be either eliminated or serve Germany, Jews should be used for making soap. But

It was never publicly announced.

all Putin's rhetoric is perfectly good, just as taken from the

Putin is just lying all the time.

Mariupol is destroyed by Russian forces.

And I am sure its citizens did not ask defend them by setting up
machine guns in their flat windows.

So it was Russian army that destroyed city, ok.

At this moment thousands of Ukranians are leaving Russia via
Russia /EU border, the don't want to stay here. This is how we
"saved" them.

Of course any place in the world is better than a city "defended" by Ukrainian nationalists. They know well that the more destruction be
made the better. They hope the city will not be pro Russian after
that.

Ukranians are escaping from Russia! They don't want to be here.
That's why there are 2 days long queues on western Russian borders at this current moment.

Ad even Russians are escaping from Russia in big numbers. Thats the reality.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Ukrainian ultra-natinalists are not better.

There are no nazis or ultra-nationalists as you say in Ukraine. Only people defending themselves from Russia's attacks.

Putin at least doesn't glorify Nazi WW2 collaborators. Do you know
what is the difference between Hitler and Putin?

There isn't much difference. Russia is the nazi regime of today.

The first said it openly -- we conquer countries for place for our
race, other nations should be either eliminated or serve Germany,
Jews should be used for making soap. But all Putin's rhetoric is
perfectly good, just as taken from the chivalrous novels. No
occupation, but liberation, fighting with neonazism, defending
justice,

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is unjust. There is no way to get justice from injustice.

Russians who are humiliated; the current operation is a noble, heroic
matter.

There is nothing noble or heroic about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. There may be parades in Russia but there will be no heroes in Russia.

Russia has already lost.

Tell me at least one bad Putin's slogan which can mark him as a
fascist.

All of the propaganda coming out of the kremlin and Russia generally. It is a fascist trait.

And I am sure its citizens did not ask defend them by setting up machine
guns in their flat windows.

Why do the civilians in Mariupol need to be defended? Because Russia invaded Ukraine?

https://youtu.be/C66mAkS1ZfM?list=PL7dQWce1VEocye4PFXY64yZEgdn7HBdF3

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 13.04.2022 12:34
ak>>>> Donbass. Russian troops entered Donbass this spring.
DP>>> Same lies again. Who's gonna believe you now?
ak>> I said "Russian troops", not Russian "polite green men".
DP> There is no difference.

There is a big difference between the two. Can't you see it now on TV?

DP>>> Violence and threats is the core of Putin's regime.
ak>> Ukrainian ultra-natinalists are not better. Putin at least doesn't
DP> No, they are just different.
ak>> glorify Nazi WW2 collaborators. Do you know what is the difference
DP> He glorify soviet era which was a disaster.

It is absolutely clear that Nazi Germany could be defeated only by the
Soviet people who were ready to give their lives for a fairy tale of a
bright future. If there had not been the USSR and Stalin all the world
would now spoke German in better case. Those people were idealistic and
that's why we should treat the dead Red Army soldiers like angels. Even
if Putin likes to use them for his aims it changes nothing.

ak>> between Hitler and Putin? The first said it openly -- we conquer
DP> Putin never served in army, btw.
ak>> countries for place for our race, other nations should be either
ak>> eliminated or serve Germany, Jews should be used for making soap.
ak>> But

DP> It was never publicly announced.

Yeah, it had been done in reality, without excessive words.

ak>> all Putin's rhetoric is perfectly good, just as taken from the
DP> Putin is just lying all the time.

IMHO, it it more correct to say that Putin believes that he does good.
In this sense he doesn't lie.

DP>>> Mariupol is destroyed by Russian forces.
ak>> And I am sure its citizens did not ask defend them by setting up
ak>> machine guns in their flat windows.

DP> So it was Russian army that destroyed city, ok.

The only reason why nationalists started to defend Mariupol so franticly
is a simple fact - they knew that Mariupol citizens would greet Russian
troops if they would allow enter the city freely. It is difficult to say
what is the bigger crime -- to storm the city or to defend it using
citizens as a shield.

DP>>> At this moment thousands of Ukranians are leaving Russia via
DP>>> Russia /EU border, the don't want to stay here. This is how
DP>>> we "saved" them.
ak>> Of course any place in the world is better than a city "defended"
ak>> by Ukrainian nationalists. They know well that the more
ak>> destruction be made the better. They hope the city will not be pro
ak>> Russian after that.

DP> Ukranians are escaping from Russia! They don't want to be here.
DP> That's why there are 2 days long queues on western Russian borders
DP> at this current moment.

No wonder -- in Europe they are going to have a lot of money and help. A
half a million Ukrainian refuges in Russia certainly will not get so much.

DP> Ad even Russians are escaping from Russia in big numbers. Thats the
DP> reality.

Yes, it will be a hard time. If one has a possibility to move out of
here why not. Although, as I heard, these people are now under brutal nationalistic attacks in Europe and America just because they are from
Russia.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 13.04.2022 13:14

ak>> Ukrainian ultra-natinalists are not better.
AI> There are no nazis or ultra-nationalists as you say in Ukraine.
AI> Only people defending themselves from Russia's attacks.

ak>> Putin at least doesn't glorify Nazi WW2 collaborators. Do you
ak>> know what is the difference between Hitler and Putin?

AI> There isn't much difference. Russia is the nazi regime of today.

Nazi == ultra-nationalistic. Look for Ukraine.

ak>> The first said it openly -- we conquer countries for place for our
ak>> race, other nations should be either eliminated or serve Germany,
ak>> Jews should be used for making soap. But all Putin's rhetoric is
ak>> perfectly good, just as taken from the chivalrous novels. No
ak>> occupation, but liberation, fighting with neonazism, defending
ak>> justice,

AI> Russia's invasion of Ukraine is unjust. There is no way to get
AI> justice from injustice.

You see only one side of the scene. All the one-side reports are useless
in this case.

ak>> Russians who are humiliated; the current operation is a noble,
ak>> heroic matter.

AI> There is nothing noble or heroic about Russia's invasion of
AI> Ukraine. There may be parades in Russia but there will be no heroes
AI> in Russia.

AI> Russia has already lost.

What do you mean by it?

ak>> Tell me at least one bad Putin's slogan which can mark him as a
ak>> fascist.

AI> All of the propaganda coming out of the kremlin and Russia
AI> generally. It is a fascist trait.

It's not a place for freedom I agree. But I repeat that a strong
propaganda is always based on the true facts and notions. Only in this
case it has success. I see in Russia cars wearing "Z". I see children
with "Z" cut in their haircuts.

ak>> And I am sure its citizens did not ask defend them by setting up
ak>> machine guns in their flat windows.

AI> Why do the civilians in Mariupol need to be defended? Because
AI> Russia invaded Ukraine?

I doubt that they needed to be defended at all.

AI> https://youtu.b/C66mAkS1ZfM?list=PL7dQWce1VEocye4PFXY64yZEgdn7HBdF3

The time of 2015 is incomparable with the present situation. But at
least one thing is clear -- Ukraine at that time held a military
operation in Donbass similar to Russian one today. Well, it was at a
smaller scale, but it has been continued 8 years.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

There isn't much difference. Russia is the nazi regime of today.

Nazi == ultra-nationalistic. Look for Ukraine.

Bzzt. Russia is on a nationalistic tac now.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is unjust. There is no way to get
justice from injustice.

You see only one side of the scene. All the one-side reports are useless
in this case.

Oh? What have I missed?

There is nothing noble or heroic about Russia's invasion of
Ukraine. There may be parades in Russia but there will be no heroes
in Russia.

Russia has already lost.

What do you mean by it?

I mean just what I said. There is no justice or anything noble about the invasion. There never was and never will be. When the war is over there will be no heroes heading back to Russia.

When I say that Russia has already lost I mean simply that. In 60 or so days of war they have not accomplished any of their objectives.

They have accomplished death and destruction (of civilians and civil infrastructure) on a major scale. Was that the objective?

All of the propaganda coming out of the kremlin and Russia
generally. It is a fascist trait.

It's not a place for freedom I agree. But I repeat that a strong
propaganda is always based on the true facts and notions.

The propaganda that comes from the kremlin today is all lies, it's baseless.

Only in this case it has success. I see in Russia cars wearing "Z".

I have seen that too. It's shameful.

I see children with "Z" cut in their haircuts.

What a mindless attitude. Do you think children know waht "Z" means?

Why do the civilians in Mariupol need to be defended? Because
Russia invaded Ukraine?

I doubt that they needed to be defended at all.

The young lady we talked about previously would disagree, if she could.

https://youtu.b/C66mAkS1ZfM?list=PL7dQWce1VEocye4PFXY64yZEgdn7HBdF3

The time of 2015 is incomparable with the present situation. But at
least one thing is clear -- Ukraine at that time held a military
operation in Donbass similar to Russian one today. Well, it was at a
smaller scale, but it has been continued 8 years.

In 2015 it is clear to see Russian involvment in the Donbass region and that is why the Ukraine military had to have a military operation there as they do taoday.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Thursday April 14 2022 09:41, you wrote to me:

There is no difference.

There is a big difference between the two. Can't you see it now on TV?

There is no difference when they are dead. The same dead corpse.

It is absolutely clear that Nazi Germany could be defeated only by the
Soviet people who were ready to give their lives for a fairy tale of

They were defeated by many countries together.

a bright future. If there had not been the USSR and Stalin all the
world would now spoke German in better case. Those people were

Without Stalin/bolsheviks Hitler wasn't going to be elected. That's the problem.
We as Russian nation created a monster.

countries for place for our race, other nations should be
either eliminated or serve Germany, Jews should be used for
making soap. But

It was never publicly announced.

Yeah, it had been done in reality, without excessive words.

And in reality Putin started a mass killing of Russians in Ukraine.

all Putin's rhetoric is perfectly good, just as taken from the

Putin is just lying all the time.

IMHO, it it more correct to say that Putin believes that he does good.
In this sense he doesn't lie.

How do you know what he believes in? he is your close friend?

So it was Russian army that destroyed city, ok.

The only reason why nationalists started to defend Mariupol so

This is their own country, they are defending it. The same way as Soviet army was defending soviet cities during WWII.

Ukranians are escaping from Russia! They don't want to be here.
That's why there are 2 days long queues on western Russian
borders at this current moment.

No wonder -- in Europe they are going to have a lot of money and help.

So they don't like "russian world" at all? :)

A half a million Ukrainian refuges in Russia certainly will not get so much.

What about great Russian culture?

Ad even Russians are escaping from Russia in big numbers. Thats
the reality.

Yes, it will be a hard time. If one has a possibility to move out of
here why not. Although, as I heard, these people are now under brutal nationalistic attacks in Europe and America just because they are from
Russia.

Only if they say "I love Putin and want kill you all". If they use our new white-blue-white flag and say "Down with Putin!" they will be treated like best friends.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 14.04.2022 10:33

AI>> You see only one side of the scene. All the one-side reports are
AI>> useless in this case.

AI> Oh? What have I missed?

You DON't miss only fucking news. Take for instance such "news" from BBC
who pretends to be an objective media:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
Russian forces have attacked a succession of Ukrainian-controlled towns further to the east in areas of Luhansk. They claim to have seized
Rubizhne near Severodonetsk and have destroyed much of the towns of
Lysychansk and Popasna, killing civilians in their homes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544
----- The end of the citation -----

Poor civilians whom Putin wants to entice on his side!. ;-) It is a real Goebbels piece! No doubt that such "news" came from Kiev and have little
cost. But enjoy it, you like it because you want it.

AI>>> There is nothing noble or heroic about Russia's invasion of
AI>>> Ukraine. There may be parades in Russia but there will be no
AI>>> heroes in Russia. Russia has already lost.

ak>> What do you mean by it?

AI> I mean just what I said. There is no justice or anything noble
AI> about the invasion. There never was and never will be. When the war
AI> is over there will be no heroes heading back to Russia.

AI> When I say that Russia has already lost I mean simply that. In 60
AI> or so days of war they have not accomplished any of their
AI> objectives.

The main objective, as it was declared, is preventing Donbass from
shelling and siege. We'll see could it be gained. I don't think that
shelling and siege will continue after Ukraine army has known the cost
of it.

<skipped>
ak>> The time of 2015 is incomparable with the present situation. But
ak>> at least one thing is clear -- Ukraine at that time held a
ak>> military operation in Donbass similar to Russian one today. Well,
ak>> it was at a smaller scale, but it has been continued 8 years.

AI> In 2015 it is clear to see Russian involvment in the Donbass region
AI> and that is why the Ukraine military had to have a military
AI> operation there as they do today.

You are funny. Take for instance NATO involvement in this war. The EU considers it is just to help Ukraine with weapon and it sends
unofficially a lot of mercenaries to there. So Russia could not allow
Ukraine to defeat Donbass and helped it also without direct involvement.
Until this spring.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 14.04.2022 11:56

ak>> It is absolutely clear that Nazi Germany could be defeated only by
ak>> the Soviet people who were ready to give their lives for a fairy
ak>> tale of

DP> They were defeated by many countries together.

If to tell the truth -- the only reason for Americans to open in 1944
the second front against Germany was the fear that the USSR would
capture the whole Europe by itself and install Communism there. It was a
real fear. And after the USSR had done all dirty and bloody job it was easy.

ak>> a bright future. If there had not been the USSR and Stalin all the
ak>> world would now spoke German in better case. Those people were

DP> Without Stalin/bolsheviks Hitler wasn't going to be elected. That's
DP> the problem. We as Russian nation created a monster.

It is a poor rumour that Stain liked Hitler. All 193x everybody said
that the war with Germany was inevitable. But both countries were
outcasts and they trade with each other.

ak>>>> countries for place for our race, other nations should be either
ak>>>> eliminated or serve Germany, Jews should be used for making
ak>>>> soap. But
DP>>> It was never publicly announced.
ak>> Yeah, it had been done in reality, without excessive words.
DP> And in reality Putin started a mass killing of Russians in Ukraine.

A terrible Mongolian khan came to kill Russians in Ukraine. Do you laugh yourself at your words?

ak>>>> all Putin's rhetoric is perfectly good, just as taken from the
DP>>> Putin is just lying all the time.
ak>> IMHO, it it more correct to say that Putin believes that he does
ak>> good. In this sense he doesn't lie.
DP> How do you know what he believes in? he is your close friend?

No, he is not, but IMHO it is obvious he does what he believes is
correct. Is it a lie? We can also say that the notion of the truth is relatively not absolute one. Two persons can consider one thing differently.

<skipped>
ak>> Yes, it will be a hard time. If one has a possibility to move out
ak>> of here why not. Although, as I heard, these people are now under
ak>> brutal nationalistic attacks in Europe and America just because
ak>> they are from Russia.

DP> Only if they say "I love Putin and want kill you all". If they use
DP> our new white-blue-white flag and say "Down with Putin!" they will
DP> be treated like best friends.

What should they say about Russians in Donetsk, for instance?

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Oh? What have I missed?

You DON't miss only fucking news. Take for instance such "news" from BBC
who pretends to be an objective media:

Yes, the BBC is objective.

-----Beginning of the citation-----
Russian forces have attacked a succession of Ukrainian-controlled towns further to the east in areas of Luhansk. They claim to have seized
Rubizhne near Severodonetsk and have destroyed much of the towns of Lysychansk and Popasna, killing civilians in their homes. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544
----- The end of the citation -----
Poor civilians whom Putin wants to entice on his side!. ;-)

Putin is not protecting civilians, russian speaking or not. That was never part of his objective. He has killed more civilians than we know at this point.

It is a real Goebbels piece!

Goebbels time is over now. It's now time for Putin and the russian propaganda machine.

No doubt that such "news" came from Kiev and have little
cost. But enjoy it, you like it because you want it.

I do not like or want what I see in the news today.

The main objective, as it was declared, is preventing Donbass from
shelling and siege.

The russian federation invaded Ukraine not to prevent shelling. It meant to shell Donbass as well as the rest of Ukraine with impunity. That's why they amassed ~200,000 troops on the Ukrainian borders and then invaded.

We'll see could it be gained. I don't think that shelling and siege
will continue after Ukraine army has known the cost of it.

There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia.

In 2015 it is clear to see Russian involvment in the Donbass region
and that is why the Ukraine military had to have a military
operation there as they do today.

You are funny. Take for instance NATO involvement in this war.

NATO is not involved in this war. Not yet anyway.

The EU considers it is just to help Ukraine with weapon and it sends unofficially a lot of mercenaries to there.

The EU has sent no mercenaries.

So Russia could not allow Ukraine to defeat Donbass and helped it
also without direct involvement. Until this spring.

Russia's direct involvement is well known.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hey Alexander,

The sun is shining, I've had my morning coffee, no-ons's killing eachother here and I just received another message from you .... life is good.

If to tell the truth -- the only reason for Americans to open in 1944
the second front against Germany was the fear that the USSR would
capture the whole Europe by itself and install Communism there. It was a real fear. And after the USSR had done all dirty and bloody job it was easy.

It is important for people to understand the role and importance of Russia's part in the final victory in the European theatre of WW2. My American brethren often think that D-Day and its aftermath did it for the downfall of the Nazi-regime and that simply is not true. Russia has suffered a lot, more than any of the other Allied countries. and also contributed a lot. On June 6th 1944 Nazi-Germany was already on the retreat after Stalingrad...

But claiming Russia won that part of the war by itself and would only have stopped at the Atlantic coast is stretching it a bit too far. You are completely discounting the incredible aid Russia received from North America to sustain its war effort and keep the population fed ... without western aid in food and weaponry it would not have happened... Do not re-write history...

A terrible Mongolian khan came to kill Russians in Ukraine. Do you laugh yourself at your words?

A terrible Mongolian Khan would do the killing himself and not sit at a desk in Moskou, just pressing buttons, obviously having blood-pressure issues and going home to a warm house in the evening.

What should they say about Russians in Donetsk, for instance?

They are Ukrainians ... not Russians. If there are Russians in Donetsk then either they are visitors or occupiers or war mongers ... I put my money on the last category.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Ward Dossche wrote to alexander koryagin <=-

It is important for people to understand the role and importance of Russia's part in the final victory in the European theatre of WW2. My American brethren often think that D-Day and its aftermath did it for
the downfall of the Nazi-regime and that simply is not true.

Anyone who understands history understands the sacrifice that Soviet Russia broke the Wehrmacht's back, and the impact that losing a generation of patriots did to shape the years to come.


... UNPRISON YOUR THINK RHINO
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Friday April 15 2022 09:17, you wrote to me:

They were defeated by many countries together.

If to tell the truth -- the only reason for Americans to open in 1944
the second front against Germany was the fear that the USSR would

They opened it because they promised to open it. Like they did in WWI.

Without Stalin/bolsheviks Hitler wasn't going to be elected.
That's the problem. We as Russian nation created a monster.

It is a poor rumour that Stain liked Hitler. All 193x everybody said
that the war with Germany was inevitable. But both countries were
outcasts and they trade with each other.

Soviet heavy industry was created by american companies, btw.
So USSR wasn't an outcast.

And in reality Putin started a mass killing of Russians in
Ukraine.

A terrible Mongolian khan came to kill Russians in Ukraine. Do you
laugh yourself at your words?

Not Mongolian khan, just Putin sent troops there to kill Russians.
This is what they are doing there.

relatively not absolute one. Two persons can consider one thing differently.

As I said before - who's gonna trust you now?

Only if they say "I love Putin and want kill you all". If they
use our new white-blue-white flag and say "Down with Putin!"
they will be treated like best friends.

What should they say about Russians in Donetsk, for instance?

Putin created the whole DNR/LNR story, we were telling that for "last 8 years".

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 15.04.2022 10:37

ak>> What should they say about Russians in Donetsk, for
ak>> instance?
WD> They are Ukrainians ... not Russians. If there are Russians in
WD> Donetsk then either they are visitors or occupiers or war
WD> mongers ... I put my money on the last category.

Nationality is not a stamp on your head.

BTW - how do you think -- if Russian troops take a Ukrainian town with
Russian speaking population, well, like Bucha near Kiev, for instance,
will the Ukrainian troops shell the quarters of this town with missiles
and artillery or they will say "we can't shoot this town because there
is Ukrainian civil population there?" ;-)

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 16.04.2022 10:45

DP>>> They were defeated by many countries together.
ak>> If to tell the truth -- the only reason for Americans to open in
ak>> 1944 the second front against Germany was the fear that the USSR
ak>> would

DP> They opened it because they promised to open it. Like they did in
DP> WWI.

Yeah, they promised to open it. In 1942. But they preferred to wait a
little. ;)

DP>>> Without Stalin/bolsheviks Hitler wasn't going to be elected.
DP>>> That's the problem. We as Russian nation created a monster.

ak>> It is a poor rumour that Stain liked Hitler. All 193x everybody
ak>> said that the war with Germany was inevitable. But both countries
ak>> were outcasts and they trade with each other.

DP> Soviet heavy industry was created by american companies, btw. So
DP> USSR wasn't an outcast.

You can give examples how the US helped to build the USSR industry?

DP>>> And in reality Putin started a mass killing of Russians in
DP>>> Ukraine.
ak>> A terrible Mongolian khan came to kill Russians in Ukraine. Do you
ak>> laugh yourself at your words?

DP> Not Mongolian khan, just Putin sent troops there to kill Russians.
DP> This is what they are doing there.

Do Ukrainian troops shell the cities which captured by Russian troops?
Why civilian victims are ascribed to Russian troops only?

ak>> relatively not absolute one. Two persons can consider one thing
ak>> differently.

DP> As I said before - who's gonna trust you now?

I said nothing unnatural. Take for instance Palestine. Arabs have their
truth, Jews have their.

DP>>> Only if they say "I love Putin and want kill you all". If they
DP>>> use our new white-blue-white flag and say "Down with Putin!" they
DP>>> will be treated like best friends.
ak>> What should they say about Russians in Donetsk, for instance?

DP> Putin created the whole DNR/LNR story, we were telling that
DP> for "last 8 years".

I would again suggest to you to refresh your memory and find the people
who triggered the events in 2014. There is an awesome thought -- Ukraine
could now be peaceful and prosperous if some nationalistic cranks had
not come to Kiev's Maidan in 2014.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Alexander,

BTW - how do you think -- if Russian troops take a Ukrainian town with Russian speaking population, well, like Bucha near Kiev, for instance,
will the Ukrainian troops shell the quarters of this town with missiles
and artillery or they will say "we can't shoot this town because there
is Ukrainian civil population there?" ;-)

Amazing ... the rocket fragments bear Russian markings, shell casisngs are Russian ... Ukrainian forces are not shelling Ukrainians, we know, there are litterally hundreds of news crews swarming all over Ukraine on the Ukrainian side ... nothing from the Russian side. Of course, "it is not a war" and true reporting is punishable by prison.

BTW, congratulations on the new submarine ... great diving object in the Black Sea.

90+% of the crew perished? Correct? Captain dead? Admiral fired?

Rest assured, Russia is losing this war and eventually "will" use nuclear weapons ... that's the only option to win ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 15.04.2022 10:14

ak>> The main objective, as it was declared, is preventing Donbass from
ak>> shelling and siege.

AI> The russian federation invaded Ukraine not to prevent shelling. It
AI> meant to shell Donbass as well as the rest of Ukraine with
AI> impunity. That's why they amassed ~200,000 troops on the Ukrainian
AI> borders and then invaded.

It appeared totally correct that Ukrainian troops really planned to
capture Donetsk this spring. That's why Ukrainian army group near
Donetsk now is so big (more than 40 thousand). BTW, because of that
Russian troops still cannot remove them from Donetsk and every day
Donetsk civil quarters are under shelling with missiles and shells,
although Russian troops have no positions in the city itself.

ak>> We'll see could it be gained. I don't think that shelling and
ak>> siege will continue after Ukraine army has known the cost of it.
AI> There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia.

The things are not so simple as you think.

AI>>> In 2015 it is clear to see Russian involvment in the Donbass
AI>>> region and that is why the Ukraine military had to have a
AI>>> military operation there as they do today.

ak>> You are funny. Take for instance NATO involvement in this war.
AI> NATO is not involved in this war. Not yet anyway.

;-) You forgot to count tonnes of weapon, reconnaissance data and so
called volunteers who went to Ukraine by packs. The same things Russian
did for Donbass.

ak>> The EU considers it is just to help Ukraine with weapon and it
ak>> sends unofficially a lot of mercenaries to there.
AI> The EU has sent no mercenaries.

Those volunteers fight for free? Do you believe it?

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

It appeared totally correct that Ukrainian troops really planned to
capture Donetsk this spring.

Are you a fantasy writer? Donetsk is in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops defend there people and teritory from Russia who has been attacking them for many years now.

That's why Ukrainian army group near
Donetsk now is so big (more than 40 thousand).

Those troops have been defending the area for many years now and defending Ukraine as a whole since Russia attacked the entire counrty some 50 days ago. Does that surprise you?

BTW, because of that
Russian troops still cannot remove them from Donetsk and every day
Donetsk civil quarters are under shelling with missiles and shells,
although Russian troops have no positions in the city itself.

Russian troops should not be removing anyone from Ukraine. They should call a cease-fire and exit Ukraine.

The things are not so simple as you think.

This one is simple. There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia.

NATO is not involved in this war. Not yet anyway.

;-) You forgot to count tonnes of weapon, reconnaissance data and so
called volunteers who went to Ukraine by packs. The same things Russian
did for Donbass.

Well, whatever is happening like that is not NATO. Is is support from other countries or individuals. That is not NATO.

The EU has sent no mercenaries.

Those volunteers fight for free? Do you believe it?

Yes, there are many who fight for Ukraine for free. Money is not the motivation for everything.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alexander,

The EU has sent no mercenaries.

Those volunteers fight for free? Do you believe it?

Nationals from my country who go fight in another army, paid or unpaid doesn't matter, will face the law and serious punishment upon their return. This happened to several men (and women) who went to fight in the middle east like Syria or Iraq.

But the ones that went to Ukraine, went for free...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 16.04.2022 17:13

ak>> BTW - how do you think -- if Russian troops take a Ukrainian town
ak>> with Russian speaking population, well, like Bucha near Kiev, for
ak>> instance, will the Ukrainian troops shell the quarters of this
ak>> town with missiles and artillery or they will say "we can't shoot
ak>> this town because there is Ukrainian civil population there?" ;-)

WD> Amazing... the rocket fragments bear Russian markings, shell
WD> casisngs are Russian...

The artillery munition is mostly the same on both sides. But the Ukraine missiles are specific for Ukraine only, and it has been proved that the missile strikes of Donetsk and Kramotorsk's cross station were done by Ukraininian tactical missles Tochka-U. Infamous Bucha (when the Russian
troops were there) was shelled with multiple launch rocket system, so no wonder that some its citizens were killed.

WD> Ukrainian forces are not shelling Ukrainians, we know, there are

You are naive. If Russian troops present in some city this city is under Ukrainian shelling. It is not seen on the Ukrainian side of reporting, naturally.

WD> litterally hundreds of news crews swarming all over Ukraine on
WD> the Ukrainian side... nothing from the Russian side. Of course, "it
WD> is not a war" and true reporting is punishable by prison.

And when Russian troops leave the city it is no wonder that there are
many corpses in the streets.

WD> BTW, congratulations on the new submarine... great diving object in
WD> the Black Sea.
WD> 90+% of the crew perished? Correct? Captain dead? Admiral fired?

It is too early for wet fantasies. The captain and the crew were shown
on Russian TV.

WD> Rest assured, Russia is losing this war and eventually "will" use
WD> nuclear weapons... that's the only option to win...

This miserable fantasy come from a tired Kiev clown. There are
absolutely no ground for using nuked in Ukraine.

Bye, Ward! Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews, local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 16.04.2022 20:31

ak>> It appeared totally correct that Ukrainian troops really planned
ak>> to capture Donetsk this spring.

AI> Are you a fantasy writer? Donetsk is in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops
AI> defend there people and teritory from Russia who has been attacking
AI> them for many years now.

Russia has not been attacking Donbass for 8 years. You are misled.

ak>> That's why Ukrainian army group near Donetsk now is so big (more
ak>> than 40 thousand).

AI> Those troops have been defending the area for many years now and
AI> defending Ukraine as a whole since Russia attacked the entire
AI> counrty some 50 days ago. Does that surprise you?

I am surprised that they don't understand WHY they are being killed now. That's why Donetsk is under shelling even now.

ak>> BTW, because of that Russian troops still cannot remove them from
ak>> Donetsk and every day Donetsk civil quarters are under shelling
ak>> with missiles and shells, although Russian troops have no
ak>> positions in the city itself.

AI> Russian troops should not be removing anyone from Ukraine. They
AI> should call a cease-fire and exit Ukraine.

First of all, it is a crazy for Ukraine to fight such a superior war
machine as Russia. Especially when the clown chess player in Kiev knows perfectly well, that an occupation and slaving are not in the Putin's
plan. There is absolutely no reason at all for the Ukraine army to die. Everything could and can be solved by negotiations and mutual
concessions. For instance, Donbass should get autonomy.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Are you a fantasy writer? Donetsk is in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops
defend there people and teritory from Russia who has been attacking
them for many years now.

Russia has not been attacking Donbass for 8 years. You are misled.

If you want to make these arguments you really need to get your facts straight.

Those troops have been defending the area for many years now and
defending Ukraine as a whole since Russia attacked the entire
counrty some 50 days ago. Does that surprise you?

I am surprised that they don't understand WHY they are being killed now.

They understand fine. They are being killed now because Russia amassed it's army on their border and then invaded and began a campaign of miltary activity within Ukraine's borders. Russia's army has raped women in Ukraine, targeted civilians and destroyed cities on a massive scale.

That's why Donetsk is under shelling even now.

It is clear why Donetsk is being shelled now, and in the past. Ever hear of Transnistria?

First of all, it is a crazy for Ukraine to fight such a superior war
machine as Russia.

Ukraine did not have a choice since it was invaded and attacked by Russia.

Especially when the clown chess player in Kiev knows
perfectly well, that an occupation and slaving are not in the Putin's
plan.

It is clear that Russia does not care about human life. Even the lives of it's own people.

There is absolutely no reason at all for the Ukraine army to die.

There is no legitimate reason for Russia to invade a samller and weaker (militarily) country, but they did and have killed and destroyed in a large way. This is why the Ukraine army and civilians die in Ukraine.

Everything could and can be solved by negotiations and mutual
concessions. For instance, Donbass should get autonomy.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and does not need to negotiate that with Russia. There is not (large enough) support for autonomy in the Donbass region. If the people of the Donbass region want autonomy they can negotiate for that with Ukraine. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is not about the Donbass. Russia does not care what the people there want. It only cares about it's own selfish desires.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hey Alexander,

You are naive. If Russian troops present in some city this city is under Ukrainian shelling. It is not seen on the Ukrainian side of reporting, naturally.

Let me repeat: There is no Ukrainian side of reporting as there are literally dozens of news crews around. It's BBC, CNN, VRT, NOS, TF1, you name it ... dozens of TV-stations with their own crews... No Ukrainian fixers to take 'm around either.

And when Russian troops leave the city it is no wonder that there are
many corpses in the streets.

Those corpses were already on satellite imagery 3 weeks before Russian troops pulled out. And post mortem did not show blast damage, but bullet wounds, with Russian caliber bullets still inside ... Russian sniper activity has been documented.

BTW, congratulations on the new submarine... great diving object in ak>WD> the Black Sea.
90+% of the crew perished? Correct? Captain dead? Admiral fired?

It is too early for wet fantasies. The captain and the crew were shown
on Russian TV.

Actually ... "no" ... some people in naval military unitform were shown, they could not be identified. No captain spoke ... and the very few survivors are not allowed to go home because news of that defeat needs to be squelched. There's only proof of some 45 survivers picked up by a Turkish freighter, at least 200 heavily burned and dismembered crew members remained behind.

You just keep on denying, you're doing a pretty good job at that.

Rest assured, Russia is losing this war and eventually "will" use
nuclear weapons... that's the only option to win...

This miserable fantasy come from a tired Kiev clown. There are
absolutely no ground for using nuked in Ukraine.

I concur, there are no grounds just as there was no ground for that invasion. Yet it happened.

Our TV-crews have documented hundreds of destroyed Russian tanks, armoured vehicles, abandoned equipment ... Russia is losing this war, and that defeat is the ground for using nukes, be it smaller tactical nukes, but nukes anyway. Russia's army is not a fierce fighting machine.

The result when the fighting will have died down is that Russia has returned to paria-status as it was during the times of Brezhnev etc ... you guys were doing so well on the international level after the collapse of communism. And now suddenly you're stuck with the opposite: the largest form of Fascism ever and you don't recognize it, not even if it's staring you in the face...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 18.04.2022 13:25

AI>>> Are you a fantasy writer? Donetsk is in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops
AI>>> defend there people and teritory from Russia who has been
AI>>> attacking them for many years now.
ak>> Russia has not been attacking Donbass for 8 years. You are misled.

AI> If you want to make these arguments you really need to get your
AI> facts straight.

Do you still doubt who has been attacked at Donbass for these 8 years?
;-) I see your point -- Russian troops for 8 years tried to break up
Ukraine army defence around Donbass and went for Kiev. ;)

AI>>> Those troops have been defending the area for many years now and
AI>>> defending Ukraine as a whole since Russia attacked the entire
AI>>> counrty some 50 days ago. Does that surprise you?
ak>> I am surprised that they don't understand WHY they are being
ak>> killed now.

AI> They understand fine. They are being killed now because Russia
AI> amassed it's army on their border and then invaded and began a
AI> campaign of miltary activity within Ukraine's borders. Russia's
AI> army has raped women in Ukraine, targeted civilians and destroyed
AI> cities on a massive scale.

Why did you stop short about raping? Russian troops rape not only women.
Stop discrimination. ;)

ak>> That's why Donetsk is under shelling even now.
AI> It is clear why Donetsk is being shelled now, and in the past. Ever
AI> hear of Transnistria?

Yes I do - the situation in Transnistria (Moldova) was similar. The
power in the Moldova capital had been radically changed in 1990 and the
area decided to separate. Moldova send troops to return back the area;
there was a civil war until Russian peace keepers stopped it. They are
still there.

ak>> First of all, it is a crazy for Ukraine to fight such a superior
ak>> war machine as Russia.
AI> Ukraine did not have a choice since it was invaded and attacked by
AI> Russia.

Ukraine had all the means to avoid the conflict, but the Ukraine
authority has made a stake on force. They even now don't change it.

<skipped>
ak>> Everything could and can be solved by negotiations and mutual
ak>> concessions. For instance, Donbass should get autonomy.

AI> Ukraine is a sovereign nation and does not need to negotiate that
AI> with Russia. There is not (large enough) support for autonomy in
AI> the Donbass region. If the people of the Donbass region want
AI> autonomy they can negotiate for that with Ukraine. The Russian
AI> invasion of Ukraine is not about the Donbass. Russia does not care
AI> what the people there want. It only cares about it's own selfish
AI> desires.

The problem is that Ukrainian government is under control of the ultra-nationalists and it doesn't want even to hear about a Russian
autonomy in the east part of Ukraine. That is the core of the problem,
and because of that a peaceful solution could not be reached so long.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 18.04.2022 14:52

ak>> You are naive. If Russian troops present in some city this city is
ak>> under Ukrainian shelling. It is not seen on the Ukrainian side of
ak>> reporting, naturally.

WD> Let me repeat: There is no Ukrainian side of reporting as there are
WD> literally dozens of news crews around. It's BBC, CNN, VRT, NOS,
WD> TF1, you name it... dozens of TV-stations with their own crews...
WD> No Ukrainian fixers to take 'm around either.

So answer me at last -- do Ukrainian troops shell the cities and
villages captured by Russian troops?

ak>> And when Russian troops leave the city it is no wonder that there
ak>> are many corpses in the streets.

WD> Those corpses were already on satellite imagery 3 weeks before
WD> Russian troops pulled out. And post mortem did not show blast
WD> damage, but bullet wounds, with Russian caliber bullets still
WD> inside... Russian sniper activity has been documented.

Russian caliber bullets! Don't tell nonsense. Both sides use the same
small arms, and there is no a single reason for Russian troops to kill civilians. But those civilians who contacted with Russian troops can be
easily killed by the nationalists.

WD>> BTW, congratulations on the new submarine... great diving
WD>> object in WD> the Black Sea. WD> 90+% of the crew perished?
WD>> Correct? Captain dead? Admiral fired?

ak>> It is too early for wet fantasies. The captain and the crew were
ak>> shown on Russian TV.

WD> Actually... "no"... some people in naval military unitform were
WD> shown, they could not be identified. No captain spoke... and the
WD> very few survivors are not allowed to go home because news of that
WD> defeat needs to be squelched. There's only proof of some 45
WD> survivers picked up by a Turkish freighter, at least 200 heavily
WD> burned and dismembered crew members remained behind.

There are many rumours. I heard a leakage about 37 killed in the blast
and many inured. War takes its harvest.

WD> You just keep on denying, you're doing a pretty good job at that.

I can't confirm and admit something if I don't know for sure. But even
37 dead is a big number.

WD>> Rest assured, Russia is losing this war and eventually "will"
WD>> use nuclear weapons... that's the only option to win...

ak> This miserable fantasy come from a tired Kiev clown. There are
ak> absolutely no ground for using nuked in Ukraine.

WD> I concur, there are no grounds just as there was no ground for that
WD> invasion. Yet it happened.

There was a ground. And everybody knows it. If Zelensky has been a
clever, independent politician he could prevent the worst scenario long ago.

WD> Our TV-crews have documented hundreds of destroyed Russian tanks,
WD> armoured vehicles, abandoned equipment... Russia is losing this
WD> war, and that defeat is the ground for using nukes, be it smaller
WD> tactical nukes, but nukes anyway. Russia's army is not a fierce
WD> fighting machine.

The only difficulty for Russia in this war is that it doesn't use an
American tactic of warfare that was used by Americans in Fallujah Iraq,
for instance. It is a very effective tactic when cities are grounded
flat. Putin cannot apply such tactic for political reasons and that why
this war will be slow and long.

WD> The result when the fighting will have died down is that Russia has
WD> returned to paria-status as it was during the times of Brezhnev
WD> etc... you guys were doing so well on the international level after
WD> the collapse of communism. And now suddenly you're stuck with the
WD> opposite: the largest form of Fascism ever and you don't recognize
WD> it, not even if it's staring you in the face...

You are mixing two separate things. Well, I tell you a parable -- if a sewerage system is broken it should be something done even if a plumber
is a fascist bearing a swastika.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

If you want to make these arguments you really need to get your
facts straight.

Do you still doubt who has been attacked at Donbass for these 8 years?

No.

;-) I see your point -- Russian troops for 8 years tried to break up
Ukraine army defence around Donbass and went for Kiev. ;)

They never went for Kiev until the invasion of 2022.

They understand fine. They are being killed now because Russia
amassed it's army on their border and then invaded and began a
campaign of miltary activity within Ukraine's borders. Russia's
army has raped women in Ukraine, targeted civilians and destroyed
cities on a massive scale.

Why did you stop short about raping? Russian troops rape not only women.
Stop discrimination. ;)

I'll leave you with your thoughts on that one.

Yes I do - the situation in Transnistria (Moldova) was similar.

Not was similar, is similar. It is an unrecognized breakaway state.

The power in the Moldova capital had been radically changed in 1990 and the area decided to separate. Moldova send troops to return back the area;
there was a civil war until Russian peace keepers stopped it. They are
still there.

Peacekeepers? Hardly. In the final stages of the Transnistrain war the Russian military fired on Moldova. Transnistria is still today occupied by Russia.

Ukraine had all the means to avoid the conflict, but the Ukraine
authority has made a stake on force. They even now don't change it.

Why do you blame this on Ukraine? To put a simple thing simply this was was started by Russia.

That's just the way it is.

The problem is that Ukrainian government is under control of the ultra-nationalists and it doesn't want even to hear about a Russian
autonomy in the east part of Ukraine. That is the core of the problem,
and because of that a peaceful solution could not be reached so long.

That is a lot of silly talk that will get you nowhere.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello, alexander!

Saturday April 16 2022 17:10, you wrote to me:

They opened it because they promised to open it. Like they did
in WWI.

Yeah, they promised to open it. In 1942. But they preferred to wait a little. ;)

The opened it when they were ready. It's a stupid thing to start a war when you are not ready.

Soviet heavy industry was created by american companies, btw. So
USSR wasn't an outcast.

You can give examples how the US helped to build the USSR industry?

-----
Engineers were invited from abroad, many well-known companies, such as Siemens-Schuckertwerke AG and General Electric, were involved in the work and carried out deliveries of modern equipment, a significant part of the equipment models produced in those years at Soviet factories, were copies or modifications of foreign analogues (for example, a Fordson tractor assembled at the Stalingrad Tractor Plant).

In February 1930, between Amtorg and Albert Kahn, Inc., a firm of American architect Albert Kahn, an agreement was signed, according to which Kahn's firm became the chief consultant of the Soviet government on industrial construction and received a package of orders for the construction of industrial enterprises worth $2 billion (about $250 billion in prices of our time). This company has provided construction of more than 500 industrial facilities in the Soviet Union.[23][24][25]

A branch of Albert Kahn, Inc. was opened in Moscow under the name "Gosproektstroy". Its leader was Moritz Kahn, brother of the head of the company. It employed 25 leading American engineers and about 2,500 Soviet employees. At that time it was the largest architectural bureau in the world. During the three years of the existence of Gosproektroy, more than 4,000 Soviet architects, engineers and technicians who have studied the American experience passed through it. The Moscow Office of Heavy Machinery, a branch of the German company Demag, also worked in Moscow.

The firm of Albert Kahn played the role of coordinator between the Soviet customer and hundreds of Western companies that supplied equipment and advised the construction of individual objects. Thus, the technological project of the Nizhny Novgorod Automobile Plant was completed by Ford, the construction project by the American company Austin Motor Company. Construction of the 1st State Bearing Plant in Moscow, which was designed by Kahn, was carried out with the technical assistance of the Italian company RIV.

The Stalingrad Tractor Plant, designed by Kahn in 1930, was originally built in the United States, and then was unmounted, transported to the Soviet Union and assembled under the supervision of American engineers. It was equipped with the equipment of more than 80 American engineering companies and several German firms.

American hydrobuilder Hugh Cooper became the chief consultant for the construction of the DneproGES, hydro turbines for which were purchased from General Electric and Newport News Shipbuilding.[26]

The Magnitogorsk Metallurgical Plant was designed by the American firm Arthur G. McKee and Co., which also supervised its construction. A standard blast furnace for this and all other steel mills of the industrialisation period was developed by the Chicago-based Freyn Engineering Co.[27]
----

Even famous soviet ice-cream was produced on american equipment based on american recipes.

Not Mongolian khan, just Putin sent troops there to kill
Russians. This is what they are doing there.

Do Ukrainian troops shell the cities which captured by Russian troops?

Give me names fo the cities to be more specific?

Why civilian victims are ascribed to Russian troops only?

Because without Russia those people will be still alive.

As I said before - who's gonna trust you now?

I said nothing unnatural. Take for instance Palestine. Arabs have
their truth, Jews have their.

I don't see any reason why enyone should trust you anymore. The truth is just truth.
But the lie could be different.
The whole "Russian national idea" at this moment is based on lies.

Putin created the whole DNR/LNR story, we were telling that
for "last 8 years".

I would again suggest to you to refresh your memory and find the
people who triggered the events in 2014. There is an awesome thought

It was Putin who pushed Yanukovich to stop EU integration.

-- Ukraine could now be peaceful and prosperous if some nationalistic cranks had not come to Kiev's Maidan in 2014.

No way. Putin already said that Ukraine has no right to exist as current state. Let Putin rot in hell!

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 19.04.2022 10:55

<skipped>
ak>> Yes I do - the situation in Transnistria (Moldova) was similar.
AI> Not was similar, is similar. It is an unrecognized breakaway state.

Well, Taiwan is also a breakaway state. So what?

ak>> The power in the Moldova capital had been radically changed in
ak>> 1990 and the area decided to separate. Moldova send troops to
ak>> return back the area; there was a civil war until Russian peace
ak>> keepers stopped it. They are still there.

AI> Peacekeepers? Hardly. In the final stages of the Transnistrain war
AI> the Russian military fired on Moldova. Transnistria is still today
AI> occupied by Russia.

It is also a historical problem. Moldova changed its borders many times,
and it so happened historically that on the left side of the Dniester
live Russian speakers. The plans of Moldova nationalists, when they came
to power, were similar to those of the Ukrainian ones, and they caused
the similar havoc, which could perfectly be avoided in case of a sober, balanced policy to all the nations of Moldova.

ak>> Ukraine had all the means to avoid the conflict, but the Ukraine
ak>> authority has made a stake on force. They even now don't change
ak>> it.

AI> Why do you blame this on Ukraine? To put a simple thing simply this
AI> was was started by Russia.

The most ugly thing in this conflict that the blame are put on Russia
only, but those fucking idiots who actually started the havoc are now
shown as martyrs and poor ones.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 20.04.2022 13:49

DP>>> They opened it because they promised to open it. Like they did in
DP>>> WWI.
ak>> Yeah, they promised to open it. In 1942. But they preferred to
ak>> wait a little. ;)

DP> The opened it when they were ready. It's a stupid thing to start a
DP> war when you are not ready.

And the dirty work has not yet done by the USSR. ;) Not telling about "readiness" of the USSR to fight Germany.

DP>>> Soviet heavy industry was created by american companies, btw. So
DP>>> USSR wasn't an outcast.

ak>> You can give examples how the US helped to build the USSR
ak>> industry?

DP> -----
<skipped>
DP> In February 1930, between Amtorg and Albert Kahn, Inc., a firm of
DP> American architect Albert Kahn, an agreement was signed, according
DP> to which Kahn's firm became the chief consultant of the Soviet
DP> government on industrial construction and received a package of
DP> orders for the construction of industrial enterprises worth $2
DP> billion (about $250 billion in prices of our time). This company
DP> has provided construction of more than 500 industrial facilities in
DP> the Soviet Union. [23][24][25]
<skipped>
DP> the technological project of the Nizhny Novgorod Automobile Plant <skipped>
DP> The Stalingrad Tractor Plant, designed by Kahn in 1930, was
DP> originally built in the United States, and then was unmounted,
DP> transported to the Soviet Union and assembled under the supervision
DP> of American engineers. It was equipped with the equipment of more
DP> than 80 American engineering companies and several German firms. <skipped>
DP> American hydrobuilder Hugh Cooper became the chief consultant for
DP> the construction of the DneproGES, hydro turbines for which were
DP> purchased from General Electric and Newport News Shipbuilding. [26] <skipped>
DP> The Magnitogorsk Metallurgical Plant was designed by the American <skipped>
DP> ----

Well, although all this we can do now. ;) The main task Russia to make
its own powerful electronic industry. Russia lags behind in this area,
its chips, processors are slower, bigger, but they exist and work,
judging by our missile industry. Who can say that Russian military
rockets use American chips?

ak>> Do Ukrainian troops shell the cities which captured by Russian
ak>> troops?

DP> Give me names fo the cities to be more specific?

Well, tell me about ill-fated Bucha, for instance. Russian troops are
there -- what are doing Ukrainan troops in this case? Will they throw
bottles of vodka to Russian troops? No, they had used the Grad multiple
launch systems, and they didn't bother about Russian speaking civilians
at all.

ak>> Why civilian victims are ascribed to Russian troops only?
DP> Because without Russia those people will be still alive.

The same I can say about fucking Ukraine defenders who "defended" those unhappy people from the windows of their flats, without necessity at all.

<skipped>
ak>> I would again suggest to you to refresh your memory and find the
ak>> people who triggered the events in 2014. There is an awesome
ak>> thought

DP> It was Putin who pushed Yanukovich to stop EU integration.

He hadn't stopped it but only suspended the process, because the
conditions of the agreement were non-lucrative for Ukraine. At least Yanukovich had a right to think so as President and the agreement
initiator. President must be able to bargain, he must not to gobble up
the bite as a foolish fish, Poroshenko for instance.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Well, Taiwan is also a breakaway state. So what?

More fiction, or perhaps delusion.

Peacekeepers? Hardly. In the final stages of the Transnistrain war
the Russian military fired on Moldova. Transnistria is still today
occupied by Russia.

It is also a historical problem. Moldova changed its borders many times,
and it so happened historically that on the left side of the Dniester
live Russian speakers. The plans of Moldova nationalists, when they came
to power, were similar to those of the Ukrainian ones, and they caused
the similar havoc, which could perfectly be avoided in case of a sober, balanced policy to all the nations of Moldova.

Here's a clue for you, Transnistria does not, never did and never will exist.

The most ugly thing in this conflict that the blame are put on Russia
only, but those fucking idiots who actually started the havoc are now
shown as martyrs and poor ones.

No, Russia is blamed simply for the invasion of Ukraine, and the aftermath.

It's not rocket science.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello, alexander!

Thursday April 21 2022 09:28, you wrote to me:

The opened it when they were ready. It's a stupid thing to start
a war when you are not ready.

And the dirty work has not yet done by the USSR. ;) Not telling about

USSR already did a lot of dirt work when invaded and annexed countries in Eastern Europe.
Like killing a lot of people there.

"readiness" of the USSR to fight Germany.

USSR decided to start war alone. It was Stalin's decision, not something done by US.

Well, although all this we can do now. ;) The main task Russia to make
its own powerful electronic industry. Russia lags behind in this

Impossible. Just impossible. Too difficult for our country. Not enough smart people.
It's not about telling lies, it's about using brains.

I still remember soviet modems, it was something very ugly and years behind the West.

area, its chips, processors are slower, bigger, but they exist and
work, judging by our missile industry. Who can say that Russian
military rockets use American chips?

Xilinx is widely used in our rocket equipment.

Do Ukrainian troops shell the cities which captured by Russian
troops?

Give me names fo the cities to be more specific?

Well, tell me about ill-fated Bucha, for instance. Russian troops are there -- what are doing Ukrainan troops in this case? Will they throw

Russians troops that did the most terrible crimes in Europe since Yugoslavian wars?

bottles of vodka to Russian troops? No, they had used the Grad
multiple launch systems, and they didn't bother about Russian speaking civilians at all.

Most of people in Bucha spoke Ukranian. And they didn't use Grad there, just another lie.

Why civilian victims are ascribed to Russian troops only?

Because without Russia those people will be still alive.

The same I can say about fucking Ukraine defenders who "defended"

And what about fucking soldiers who raped women in Ukraine? Do you like how they behave there?

those unhappy people from the windows of their flats, without
necessity at all.

So you also whant to call Soviet soldiers during WWII who were defending their cities also "fucking"?

It was Putin who pushed Yanukovich to stop EU integration.

He hadn't stopped it but only suspended the process, because the conditions of the agreement were non-lucrative for Ukraine. At least

Conditions were ok, Armenia got the same status, BTW. Puting tried to bribe him again but failed.


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 21.04.2022 14:48

ak>> Well, Taiwan is also a breakaway state. So what?

AI> More fiction, or perhaps delusion.

AI>>> Peacekeepers? Hardly. In the final stages of the Transnistrain
AI>>> war the Russian military fired on Moldova. Transnistria is still
AI>>> today occupied by Russia.

ak>> It is also a historical problem. Moldova changed its borders many
ak>> times, and it so happened historically that on the left side of
ak>> the Dniester live Russian speakers. The plans of Moldova
ak>> nationalists, when they came to power, were similar to those of
ak>> the Ukrainian ones, and they caused the similar havoc, which could
ak>> perfectly be avoided in case of a sober, balanced policy to all
ak>> the nations of Moldova.

AI> Here's a clue for you, Transnistria does not, never did and never
AI> will exist.

For instance many in Scotland have had intention to separate from the
UK. Why not? The time of serfdom has gone long ago.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

For instance many in Scotland have had intention to separate from the
UK. Why not? The time of serfdom has gone long ago.

The Scot's seem happy enough these days. I haven't heard any rumblings out of Scotland in a long time. If they were unhappy we'd know.

There is a path for such things if they are needed but it doesn't include invasions or wars. Or special military operations. ;)

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 29.04.2022 09:39

ak>> For instance many in Scotland have had intention to separate from
ak>> the UK. Why not? The time of serfdom has gone long ago.

AI> The Scot's seem happy enough these days. I haven't heard any
AI> rumblings out of Scotland in a long time. If they were unhappy we'd
AI> know.

You forgot about COVID19 outbreak. It has suspended many processes. :)

AI> There is a path for such things if they are needed but it doesn't
AI> include invasions or wars. Or special military operations. ;)

Suppose that England has ultra-nationalist groups who are fighting for
the "unilateral country", like in Ukraine, and they threatened to hang
up the separation supporters by their balls. And suppose that Scots
disagree with it. ;-)

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Suppose that England has ultra-nationalist groups who are fighting for
the "unilateral country", like in Ukraine, and they threatened to hang
up the separation supporters by their balls.

That would be a serious violation of women-rights as they don't have any balls ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220425
* Origin: Many Glacier ... Protect - Preserve - Conserve - Recycle (2:292/854)

Hello Alexander,

For instance many in Scotland have had intention to separate from
the UK. Why not? The time of serfdom has gone long ago.

The Scot's seem happy enough these days. I haven't heard any
rumblings out of Scotland in a long time. If they were unhappy we'd
know.

You forgot about COVID19 outbreak. It has suspended many processes. :)

Haggis keeps Scots happy regardless of the process ...

There is a path for such things if they are needed but it doesn't
include invasions or wars. Or special military operations. ;)

Suppose that England has ultra-nationalist groups who are fighting for
the "unilateral country", like in Ukraine, and they threatened to hang
up the separation supporters by their balls. And suppose that Scots disagree with it. ;-)

Scots do not hide what they have underneath their kilts.
Which is why Hadrian built a wall.

--Lee

--
Popular vote!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Oleg,

You're going to overstep. Nazism will be disposed of completely this
time. Along with Western armaments.

So .... how is it going with the uprooting of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? Everything going as planned with the war?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

So .... how is it going with the uprooting of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? Everything going as planned with the war?

The older I get, the more I can see how history repeats itself, and the more sorry I become when I see how few people don't even see it.

In 2014 it was obvious to me that Putin was using the playbook from a certain Austrian corporal, whose name we are not allowed to mention, because of Godwin. Even if it happened ten years before I was even born, we actually study history here in Sweden. So, the 1938 Austrian Anschluss referendum, with all it's 99+% results...

Well, now Putin once again is playing the same card that he played in Crimea, this time to Anschluss even more territory. Go figure...



--
United we are strong, we win. Divided we are weak, we lose.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Well, now Putin once again is playing the same card that he played in Crimea, this time to Anschluss even more territory. Go figure...

What I cannot wrap my mind around is that he can fool a complete population with it ... we have all these modern communication tools.

I'm very worried about the lack of comments, supportive or rejective, from inside R50 and R45 though the links seem to work ... Is everybody really that scared for reprisals?

Does anyone overthere really believe the Putin rethoric? I mean the average Russian is not any more brainless than the average European I would suspect...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hi, Bj?rn Felten!
I read your message from 22.09.2022 08:00

BF> In 2014 it was obvious to me that Putin was using the playbook from
BF> a certain Austrian corporal, whose name we are not allowed to
BF> mention, because of Godwin. Even if it happened ten years before I
BF> was even born, we actually study history here in Sweden. So, the
BF> 1938 Austrian Anschluss referendum, with all it's 99+% results...

If we speak of was that Anschluss referendum result false or true - we
should say it had been perfectlty true. People got what they wanted.

BF> Well, now Putin once again is playing the same card that he played
BF> in Crimea, this time to Anschluss even more territory. Go figure...

The mainspring of the conflict was in Kiev in 2014. Ukrainian
nationalists planed and planing to make Ukrainians from Russians living
in Ukraine, make them forgot their language, to cut ties with Russia and Russian culture. Such a policy is cynically correct and workable when
they deal with thousands of people, like Russians in Estonia, for
instance. But it creates a critical atomic mass when millions of people
are targeted.

The doctrine that all people living in Ukraine are Ukrainians is false
as saying that all people in Estonia are Estonians. Thr west should
admit it long ago and treat Ukraine as a country of two nations.

Bye, Bj?rn!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 22.09.2022 08:57

BF>> Well, now Putin once again is playing the same card that he
BF>> played in Crimea, this time to Anschluss even more
BF>> territory. Go figure...
WD> What I cannot wrap my mind around is that he can fool a
WD> complete population with it ... we have all these modern
WD> communication tools. I'm very worried about the lack of
WD> comments, supportive or rejective, from inside R50 and R45
WD> though the links seem to work ... Is everybody really that scared for
WD> reprisals? Does anyone overthere really believe the Putin rethoric? I
WD> mean the average Russian is not any more brainless than the average
WD> European I would suspect...

I repeat you should not mix up Putin and other issues, especially the nationalistic conflict in Ukraine. Putin is a tyrant, OK, but the
conflict in Ukraine gives him great points and trust in Russia because
he positions himself as a defender of the Russian people who is under
attack in Donbass. He has actually hid himself behind this noble shield.

The main issue now is that everything that Putin touches becomes
discredited in the West. No matter what it is. Putin has become a
bugaboo, and parents scare children with him.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

I mean the average Russian is not any more brainless than the average European I would suspect...

It's called indoctrination. I think that after more than a century of that, many of then actually believe the bullshit they are being fed.

Take for instance the "fact" that they are fed: The Russian army has lost less than 6000 troops while eliminating half of the Ukrainian forces. So, why do they now need more than 300 thousand new troops? Do the fucking maths, Ivan!


--
United we are strong, we win. Divided we are weak, we lose.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

The mainspring of the conflict was in Kiev in 2014. Ukrainian
nationalists planed and planing to make Ukrainians from Russians living
in Ukraine, make them forgot their language, to cut ties with Russia and Russian culture. Such a policy is cynically correct and workable when
they deal with thousands of people, like Russians in Estonia, for instance. But it creates a critical atomic mass when millions of people are targeted.

Surely you do not believe that crap? Do you even know what happened in Ukraine during Stalin's reign? First he stole all the food from Ukraine and shipped it to Moscow, leaving tens of millions of Ukrainians to starve to death.

Then he made it illegal, punishable by death or deportation to Siberia (the same end result), to speak Ukrainian, only Russian was allowed at school.

So now, thanks only to a bunch of hard core old-timer's resistance, the Ukrainian culture has been able to slowly be restored.

So yes, Russian is still the first language for the vast majority of the Ukrainian people. But just as some former English colonies (USA, Canada and Australia) who even went so far as to kidnap indigenous children and put them in so called boarding schools (USA) where thousands of them died, and those that survived were forced to forget all of their indigenous culture, Stalin also failed in his attempt to totally eradicate the original Ukrainian people's culture and language.

And now, Putin is making a new attempt, picking up where Stalin left.

And of course, you are not taught at school or later, that Ukraine existed 1000 years before Russia? In fact, Russia is part of Ukraine, historically. I happen to know, because the Swedish Vikings actually founded Kiev and made it one of Europe's biggest cities 1500 years ago, when they used it as a steadily growing trading station on their way to Miklag�rd (today's Istanbul) via the rivers that ended with the Dnjepr.


--
United we are strong, we win. Divided we are weak, we lose.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Alexander,

The main issue now is that everything that Putin touches becomes discredited in the West. No matter what it is.

What do you expect? Threatening with nuclear weapons and insisting it is no idle threat ....

The Ukrainian armed forces have pushed the totality of Russian ground forces back and in places have them running, the Russian air force does not really fly sorties anymore as too many planes and helicopters are shot down, Russia has lost its flagship plus some other vessels ... When Ukrainians are able to do that, don't you think they could have overrun the Donbas separatists with their fingers in their nose if they really wanted to?

When are you leaving for the front?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hi Bj?rn Felten!
I read your message on 22-Sep-2022

WD>> I mean the average Russian is not any more brainless than the
WD>> average European I would suspect...

BF> It's called indoctrination. I think that after more than a century
BF> of that, many of then actually believe the bullshit they are being
BF> fed.

BF> Take for instance the "fact" that they are fed: The Russian army
BF> has lost less than 6000 troops while eliminating half of the
BF> Ukrainian forces. So, why do they now need more than 300 thousand
BF> new troops? Do the fucking maths, Ivan!

Both sides are lying shamelessly -- a naive youth. You just choose which
side does it more sweetly for you, and which side you are a fan.
However, I suspect that Swedes have not been Russian fans since the time
of Peter the Great. ;)

Bye Bj?rn!
Alexander
English_tutor 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-
--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi Bj?rn Felten!
I read your message on 22-Sep-2022

ak>> The mainspring of the conflict was in Kiev in 2014. Ukrainian
ak>> nationalists planed and planing to make Ukrainians from Russians
ak>> living in Ukraine, make them forgot their language, to cut ties
ak>> with Russia and Russian culture. Such a policy is cynically
ak>> correct and workable when they deal with thousands of people, like
ak>> Russians in Estonia, for instance. But it creates a critical
ak>> atomic mass when millions of people are targeted.

BF> Surely you do not believe that crap? Do you even know what happened
BF> in Ukraine during Stalin's reign? First he stole all the food from
BF> Ukraine and shipped it to Moscow, leaving tens of millions of
BF> Ukrainians to starve to death.

Turn on brains when repeating a lie. There were 30 millions of them at
that time of the famine and drought, which, BTW, struck many the USSR
regions. The repressions in those years were always _political_, and
never connected with nationality. Internationalism was a key doctrine in
the USSR.

BF> Then he made it illegal, punishable by death or deportation to
BF> Siberia (the same end result), to speak Ukrainian, only Russian was
BF> allowed at school.

Where do you get such crap? Russian was obligatory for learning in the
USSR, but all the multiply nations of the country have in schools a
lesson called "Native language".

BF> So now, thanks only to a bunch of hard core old-timer's resistance,
BF> the Ukrainian culture has been able to slowly be restored.

There is only one problem - more than 40% of Ukraine population is
actually Russian people, and they don't want to give up their culture
and identity. In other words Ukrainians after long whining to be
oppressed became new hardcore oppressors themselves.

BF> So yes, Russian is still the first language for the vast majority
BF> of the Ukrainian people. But just as some former English colonies
BF> (USA, Canada and Australia) who even went so far as to kidnap
BF> indigenous children and put them in so called boarding schools
BF> (USA) where thousands of them died, and those that survived were
BF> forced to forget all of their indigenous culture, Stalin also
BF> failed in his attempt to totally eradicate the original Ukrainian
BF> people's culture and language.

Nationality is not a gene or place factor. Nationality is how a person
thinks, speaks, what books he reads, what songs it signs. To reformat forcefully people to new nationality is a crime. People in a free
country should choose themselves, without fines and repression.

BF> And now, Putin is making a new attempt, picking up where Stalin
BF> left.

BF> And of course, you are not taught at school or later, that Ukraine
BF> existed 1000 years before Russia? In fact, Russia is part of

It is the same if you say that the USA exists two thousand years. ;-)
But many nations and tribes lived and rotated in the area of modern Ukraine.

BF> Ukraine, historically. I happen to know, because the Swedish
BF> Vikings actually founded Kiev and made it one of Europe's biggest
BF> cities 1500 years ago, when they used it as a steadily growing
BF> trading station on their way to Miklag?rd (today's Istanbul) via
BF> the rivers that ended with the Dnjepr.

I know - it was just another foreign occupation of this land. ;=) Or the
local nobility just shamelessly sold his motherland to foreigners. The estimation depends on historians. ;-)

Bye Bj?rn!
Alexander
English_tutor 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi Ward Dossche!
I read your message on 23-Sep-2022

ak>> The main issue now is that everything that Putin touches becomes
ak>> discredited in the West. No matter what it is.

WD> What do you expect? Threatening with nuclear weapons and insisting
WD> it is no idle threat....

When you say that in Ukraine there is democracy and freedom it means
that "democracy" in your understanding is equal to hatred towards
Russia. That is quite enough so that to be a democratic state in western
eyes.

WD> The Ukrainian armed forces have pushed the totality of Russian
WD> ground forces back and in places have them running, the Russian air

Not running but retreating -- after the mobilization in Ukraine its army
has 8 times more troops than Russian contractors fighting there. It
means that Russia is also going to increase the number of its troops by mobilization. The awful situation, taking in account that Russia's
claims towards Ukraine were reasonable and feasible for the Ukraine
authority if it wanted peace. But this authority preferred dead
Ukrainians to making concession to Russians.

WD> force does not really fly sorties anymore as too many planes and
WD> helicopters are shot down, Russia has lost its flagship plus some
WD> other vessels...

Do you think Ukraine has lost nothing? It is a war.

WD> When Ukrainians are able to do that, don't you think they could
WD> have overrun the Donbas separatists with their fingers in their
WD> nose if they really wanted to?

Not of course -- the present strength of the Ukrainian troops is caused
the great military help its gets now. And I told you many times why
Ukraine has ignored Minsk aggrements that implied the autonomy for
Donbass -- they have got so much weapon so the war in Donbass was
inevitable in 2022 in any case, even without Russia.

WD> When are you leaving for the front?

I am too old for that.

Bye Ward!
Alexander
English_tutor 2022-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Alexander,

Well, now Putin once again is playing the same card that he
played in Crimea, this time to Anschluss even more
territory. Go figure...

What I cannot wrap my mind around is that he can fool a
complete population with it ... we have all these modern
communication tools. I'm very worried about the lack of
comments, supportive or rejective, from inside R50 and R45
though the links seem to work ... Is everybody really that scared for
reprisals? Does anyone overthere really believe the Putin rethoric? I
mean the average Russian is not any more brainless than the average
European I would suspect...

I repeat you should not mix up Putin and other issues, especially the nationalistic conflict in Ukraine. Putin is a tyrant, OK, but the
conflict in Ukraine gives him great points and trust in Russia because
he positions himself as a defender of the Russian people who is under attack in Donbass. He has actually hid himself behind this noble shield.

The question has been asked -

When are you leaving for the front?

Hundreds of thousands of Russians are fleeing Russia. Any which
way they can. There is a reason why. And that reason is fear. Not
just any kind of fear, but total fear.

The main issue now is that everything that Putin touches becomes discredited in the West.

Russians are being sent to Ukraine. Those Russians are not coming
back, except in body bags. Putin can no longer hide this from his own
people because too many Russians are already dead.

No matter what it is.

You are being told the "special military operation" is going well
in Russia. This has been going on for over seven months, with no end
in sight. Now your leader wants to send an additional 300,000 people,
most of whom who have had little or no military training, to Ukraine.
With the possibility of sending up to a million conscripts as cannon
fodder.

How many dead Russians will it take for you to realize there is a
very real possibility you could also be sent to the front?

Putin has become a bugaboo, and parents scare children with him.

'PUTIN, THE HAGUE IS WAITING FOR YOU'

Large banner taped to a tall building in Vilnius, Lithuania

It is not just Lithuanians who hold Putin to blame for the mess
in Ukraine. He has been ostracized in the United Nations the past
few days, and for good reason.

So many Russians are fleeing Russia that Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia,
and Poland have all banned Russian tourists. And Finland threatening
to do the same, due to the number of Russians with visas.

It is strange to ban people from Russia. Especially those trying
to flee from a madman intent on sending whoever he can find to Ukraine.

Escaping enlistment is not grounds for asylum. Protest and get sent
to the front, total fear. Russia today is one giant prison.

The prime minister of Lithuania explained the situation quite
clearly the other day, saying it was "not the duty of other countries
to save Russia fleeing mobilisation."

So please. Do not blame everything on the West for discrediting
everything that Putin says or does.

After all, Canada and New Zealand came to the rescue for Americans
who fled the draft during the Vietnam War.

For Life,
Lee

--
Donald Trump! Go away! Racist, sexist, anti-gay!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alexander,

[..]

I repeat you should not mix up Putin and other issues, especially the nationalistic conflict in Ukraine. Putin is a tyrant, OK, but the
conflict in Ukraine gives him great points and trust in Russia because
he positions himself as a defender of the Russian people who is under attack in Donbass. He has actually hid himself behind this noble shield.

Why are so many Russians leaving Russia? Hundreds of thousands have
left just in the past few months, with no intent of returning to Russia. Certainly there has to be a reason.

The main issue now is that everything that Putin touches becomes discredited in the West. No matter what it is. Putin has become a
bugaboo, and parents scare children with him.

Russians leaving Russia are not blaming the West, but their own
president. None of them want to be sent to the front to fight a
senseless war that benefits no one. So why stay?

For Life,
Lee

--
I won't fan the flames of hate, ~Joe Biden

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Ward,

The main issue now is that everything that Putin touches becomes
discredited in the West. No matter what it is.

What do you expect? Threatening with nuclear weapons and insisting it is no
idle threat ....

US President Harry Truman atomized two Japanese cities, showing
the world using such weapons was no idle threat. General Curtis LeMay
wanted Truman to go further by atomizing cities in the USSR.

The Ukrainian armed forces have pushed the totality of Russian ground forces
back and in places have them running, the Russian air force does not really
fly sorties anymore as too many planes and helicopters are shot down, Russia has lost its flagship plus some other vessels ... When Ukrainians are able to do that, don't you think they could have overrun the Donbas separatists with their fingers in their nose if they really wanted to?

A nuclear-armed Ukraine would have put an end to Putin's misrule.
And also millions of innocent lives in Russia. And maybe that was
why Putin ordered his "special military operation" - to rid Ukraine
of its nuclear weapons program (before it had developed real nukes).

When are you leaving for the front?

Over 300,000 Russians have fled Russia, many of them using their
visas to make Finland their new home. Others have continued onward
to Sweden, and beyond. Maybe some have become your new neigbbors
in Belgium ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Sleep With Someone New

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

The mainspring of the conflict was in Kiev in 2014. Ukrainian

That was a popular uprising.

https://tinyurl.com/2a7nw9mz

In all your verbiage you didn't mention the invasion by Russia on Feb. 24th. That is the mainspring of where we are today.

nationalists planed and planing to make Ukrainians from Russians living
in Ukraine, make them forgot their language, to cut ties with Russia and Russian culture.

That is not true, it is yet another talking point.

The doctrine that all people living in Ukraine are Ukrainians is false
as saying that all people in Estonia are Estonians. Thr west should
admit it long ago and treat Ukraine as a country of two nations.

The people of Ukraine are free to be who/what they want to be. I don't think they want to be Ruzzian.


--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 09-23-22 09:02, Alexander Koryagin <=-
spoke to Bj?rn Felten about Re: Ukraine National Ant <=-

Nationality is not a gene or place factor. Nationality is how a person thinks, speaks, what books he reads, what songs it signs. To reformat forcefully people to new nationality is a crime. People in a free
country should choose themselves, without fines and repression.

You are confusing Nationality and culture. Nationality is based on the
nation in which you live.

Culture is not a gene or place factor. Culture is how a person thinks,
speaks, what books he reads, what songs it sings. To try to forcefully
reformat people to new culture is a crime. People in a free country
should choose themselves, without fines and repression.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 01:29:59, 24 Sep 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Bj�rn,

So .... how is it going with the uprooting of neo-Nazism in Ukraine?
Everything going as planned with the war?

The older I get, the more I can see how history repeats itself, and the more
sorry I become when I see how few people don't even see it.

Europe is turning to the right. Not just a little bit, but full tilt.
Spain, France, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Poland, England, Denmark,
and many others. Finland almost joined the ranks, and Sweden just made
the list a week ago.

On Sunday there will be elections in Italy. And the favorite to become
prime minister is Giorgia Meloni, a 45-year-old woman representing a
far-right party that is expected to win an outright majority of seats.

Imagine that. Italy's 70th government since 1946, being led by a woman,
the female version of Il Duce. Maybe she will call herself La Douche.

In any event, this is getting to be just like old times. The only
thing left is for Germany to find its new Fuehrer ...

In 2014 it was obvious to me that Putin was using the playbook from a certain Austrian corporal, whose name we are not allowed to mention, because of Godwin.

You don't understand. In 2014, Putin carved out his own version of
Kuwait and annexed it as part of Russia.

More recently, Putin borrowed an idea from the GWB playbook, using
a pre-emptive first strike in order to bring about regime change in
Iraq.

It took the USA ten years to learn that Iraq was not worth the effort.
And twenty years to learn that Afghanistan was not worth the effort.

I wonder how long it will take Putin to figure things out?

Even if it happened ten years before I was even born, we actually study history here in Sweden. So, the 1938 Austrian Anschluss referendum, with all it's 99+% results...

The one redeeming quality the Austrian corporal had was bringing
Russians and Ukrainians together ...

Well, now Putin once again is playing the same card that he played in Crimea, this time to Anschluss even more territory. Go figure...

Well, he is bringing both sides to the same field of battle ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Say it loud! Say it clear! / Refugees are welcome here!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Bj�rn,

I mean the average Russian is not any more brainless than the average
European I would suspect...

It's called indoctrination. I think that after more than a century of that,
many of then actually believe the bullshit they are being fed.

Poland ceased to exist for 400 years. And yet Poles have managed to
retain their own language, religion, and culture, as well as recreate
their own country.

Take for instance the "fact" that they are fed: The Russian army has lost less than 6000 troops while eliminating half of the Ukrainian forces. So, why do they now need more than 300 thousand new troops? Do the fucking maths, Ivan!

"All comedy is based on tragedy." ~William Shakespeare

Perhaps Putin forgot that Zelensky is a professional comedian?

For Life,
Lee

--
Pork. The One You Love.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 23.09.2022 22:01

ak>> I repeat you should not mix up Putin and other issues, especially
ak>> the nationalistic conflict in Ukraine. Putin is a tyrant, OK, but
ak>> the conflict in Ukraine gives him great points and trust in Russia
ak>> because he positions himself as a defender of the Russian people
ak>> who is under attack in Donbass. He has actually hid himself behind
ak>> this noble shield.

LL> The question has been asked -
LL> When are you leaving for the front?

When Ukrainian students, women and pensioners will be drafted -- you
probably get the answer on your question. ;=)

LL> Hundreds of thousands of Russians are fleeing Russia. Any which way
LL> they can. There is a reason why. And that reason is fear. Not just
LL> any kind of fear, but total fear.

Well, IMHO its a lie in general - first, Russians are now prohibited to
get in Europe, second Baltic states and Finland have already refused to
accept those who run from the draft. They are afraid of Russians in
general, it is a mental illness, probably.

LL> Russians are being sent to Ukraine. Those Russians are not coming
LL> back, except in body bags. Putin can no longer hide this from his
LL> own people because too many Russians are already dead.

The only reason why so many Russians support Putin today is that Ukraine
holds Nazi policy in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Nazism and Russians are incompatible, and many Russians are ready to fight to the end. Putin
uses the situation as a shield.

LL> You are being told the "special military operation" is going well
LL> in Russia. This has been going on for over seven months, with no
LL> end in sight. Now your leader wants to send an additional 300,000
LL> people, most of whom who have had little or no military training,
LL> to Ukraine. With the possibility of sending up to a million
LL> conscripts as cannon fodder.

This situations has no other options after Zelensky declared
mobilization in Ukraine. He could solve the problem without it, but he preferred to throw into the war furnace millions of Ukrainians and he
feels himself Napoleon. Whereas there is no reason for such a war at
all. Zelensky and nationalists are stubborn as rams.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 23.09.2022 22:37

??>>> The mainspring of the conflict was in Kiev in 2014.
??>>> Ukrainian
AI> That was a popular uprising.

So was the storm of Capitol? Why does the US law persecute them?

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

That was a popular uprising.

So was the storm of Capitol? Why does the US law persecute them?

That was not a poular uprising. They are not persecuted they are prosecuted.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi, Dale Shipp!
I read your message from 24.09.2022 02:28

AK>> Nationality is not a gene or place factor. Nationality is how a
AK>> person thinks, speaks, what books he reads, what songs he sings.
AK>> To reformat forcefully people to new nationality is a crime.
AK>> People in a free country should choose themselves, without fines
AK>> and repression.

DS> You are confusing Nationality and culture. Nationality is based on
DS> the nation in which you live.

If a person moved to another country - he changed his nationality? ;-)
If a Jew moves to Finland he becomes a Finn?

Bye, Dale!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Russians are now prohibited to
get in Europe, second Baltic states and Finland have already refused to accept those who run from the draft. They are afraid of Russians in general, it is a mental illness, probably.

That is slightly incorrect, to use an understatement.

Several EU-countries, mine too, have declared that draft-dodgers are not welcome, will not get visa, not even for humanitarian reasons.

The reasons are simple:

1) None of these people lifted a finger against the illegal invasion and the war in Ukraine until they felt the heat themselves. Clean up your own mess at home. If all the disgusted flee, only the disgusting remain.

2) Russians fleeing Russia to dodge the draft do not constitute a humanitarian crisis. Ukrainians whom fled Ukraine to run from a war and to save themselves "do" constitute a humanitarian crisis. They are true refugees and are helped here. Millions have fled and are warmly welcomed, they are helped, sheltered, fed, they take part in local social life, are helped to find a job to support themselves until they can return ... if they so wish. Complete emergency villages with all utilities have been built ... children are learning the language and go to school here.

3) Taking in Russian draft dodgers would be an insult towards the Ukrainian refugess. Russian draft-dodgers are not refugees according to the UN Convention. The European budget is not going to pay for millions of draft dodgers.

Russians can still apply for visa.

Zelensky and nationalists are stubborn as rams.

Russia invaded a peaceful member of the international society and in doing so violated the UN Charter of which it is a subscriber bound to its wording.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 26.09.2022 09:37

AI>>> That was a popular uprising.
ak>> So was the storm of the Capitol? Why does the US law persecute them?
AI> That was not a poular uprising. They are not persecuted they are
AI> prosecuted.

What the difference between the storm of the Capital and Kiev events in
2014?

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

On 09-26-22 09:41, Alexander Koryagin <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Ukraine National Ant <=-

You are confusing Nationality and culture. Nationality is based on
the nation in which you live.

If a person moved to another country - he changed his nationality? ;-)

Only if he declares that new country to be his permanent residence and
loyalty. If an American moves to England for a job for a few years,
they do not become British but remain as American. But if they move to
England and declare that to be their new loyalty, then they become
British.

If a Jew moves to Finland he becomes a Finn?

You have again confused nationality and culture. Being a Jew is not a nationality. The best answer to your question is yes, they become a
Finn but they are also still a Jew.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:50:04, 27 Sep 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 26.09.2022 15:12

ak>> Russians are now prohibited to get in Europe, second Baltic states
ak>> and Finland have already refused to accept those who run from the
ak>> draft. They are afraid of Russians in general, it is a mental
ak>> illness, probably.

WD> That is slightly incorrect, to use an understatement.

WD> Several EU-countries, mine too, have declared that draft-dodgers
WD> are not welcome, will not get visa, not even for humanitarian
WD> reasons.

WD> The reasons are simple:

WD> 1) None of these people lifted a finger against the illegal
WD> invasion and the war in Ukraine until they felt the heat
WD> themselves. Clean up your own mess at home. If all the disgusted
WD> flee, only the disgusting remain.

WD> 2) Russians fleeing Russia to dodge the draft do not constitute a
WD> humanitarian crisis. Ukrainians whom fled Ukraine to run from a war
WD> and to save themselves "do" constitute a humanitarian crisis. They
WD> are true refugees and are helped here. Millions have fled and are
WD> warmly welcomed, they are helped, sheltered, fed, they take part in
WD> local social life, are helped to find a job to support themselves
WD> until they can return... if they so wish. Complete emergency
WD> villages with all utilities have been built... children are
WD> learning the language and go to school here.

WD> 3) Taking in Russian draft dodgers would be an insult towards the
WD> Ukrainian refugess. Russian draft-dodgers are not refugees
WD> according to the UN Convention. The European budget is not going to
WD> pay for millions of draft dodgers.

WD> Russians can still apply for visa.

Are you a counsel for the defence? ;-)

ak>> Zelensky and nationalists are stubborn as rams.

WD> Russia invaded a peaceful member of the international society and
WD> in doing so violated the UN Charter of which it is a subscriber
WD> bound to its wording.

A peaceful state doesn't fight with its citizens for 8 years.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Dale Shipp!
I read your message from 27.09.2022 00:45

DS>> You are confusing Nationality and culture. Nationality is based on
DS>> the nation in which you live.

AK>> If a person moved to another country - he changed his
AK>> nationality? ;-)

DS> Only if he declares that new country to be his permanent residence
DS> and loyalty. If an American moves to England for a job for a few
DS> years, they do not become British but remain as American. But if
DS> they move to England and declare that to be their new loyalty, then
DS> they become British.

Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?

AK>> If a Jew moves to Finland he becomes a Finn?

DS> You have again confused nationality and culture. Being a Jew is not
DS> a nationality. The best answer to your question is yes, they become
DS> a Finn but they are also still a Jew.

Jew is not nationality! A new word in horsed aviation, as we put it in
Russia.


Bye, Dale!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

What the difference between the storm of the Capital and Kiev events in
2014?

In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they wanted/needed to do.

It was not the people speaking at the capitol on Jan 6, 2021, it was a group of MAGA trumpists supported by right wing groups like the proud boys trying to
overturn the results of the election. They were acting against the people.

Big difference.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alexander,

Russians can still apply for visa.

Are you a counsel for the defence? ;-)

Next year April I'm co-organiser of a world-cup acrobatic gymnastics. We'll see how many visas will be issued. If that works, then try to get here with overland borders closed and the only flights are via Istanbul, Abu Dhabi, Doha and Dubai.

A peaceful state doesn't fight with its citizens for 8 years.

Russia/USSR has been fighting its citizens since 'forever'.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Alexander,

Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?

The Scotts and the Welsh in the European Union felt that they should be given a greater voice in European decision-making. That is why the European Committee of the Regions was established under the Maastricht Treaty, and Member States were allowed to be represented in the Council of the EU by ministers from their regional governments.

Scotland and Wales in recent years have not started separatist wars nor have they shot down innocent civilian airliners.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Alan Ianson wrote to alexander koryagin <=-

What the difference between the storm of the Capital and Kiev events in 2014?

In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they wanted/needed to do.

It was not the people speaking at the capitol on Jan 6, 2021, it
was a group of MAGA trumpists supported by right wing groups like
the proud boys trying to overturn the results of the election.
They were acting against the people.

Spoken like a good little liberal dog.

Your masters have trained you well, and you've memorized the mandatory
talking points (and can regurgitate them on command). Good job.



... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

What the difference between the storm of the Capital and Kiev events in
2014?

In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they
wanted/needed to do.

It was not the people speaking at the capitol on Jan 6, 2021, it
was a group of MAGA trumpists supported by right wing groups like
the proud boys trying to overturn the results of the election.
They were acting against the people.

Spoken like a good little liberal dog.

Please don't get emotional, Dan.

Your masters have trained you well, and you've memorized the mandatory talking points (and can regurgitate them on command). Good job.

I have no master. I am free to speak my thoughts and opinions, can you?

What do you think happened on Jan 6?

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 27 Sep 22 11:06:54, Alan Ianson said the following to Dan Clough:

What do you think happened on Jan 6?

You first went to the bathroom to change your feminine protection before returning to the keyboard to whine loudly in the Politics echo once again about how Trump affects your daily life as a Canadian.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

What do you think happened on Jan 6?

You first went to the bathroom to change your feminine protection before returning to the keyboard to whine loudly in the Politics echo once again about how Trump affects your daily life as a Canadian.

More emotional blah blah blah.

That was a simple/serious question. What do you think happened on Jan 6?

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Nick Andre wrote to Alan Ianson <=-

On 27 Sep 22 11:06:54, Alan Ianson said the following to Dan
Clough:

What do you think happened on Jan 6?

You first went to the bathroom to change your feminine protection
before returning to the keyboard to whine loudly in the Politics
echo once again about how Trump affects your daily life as a
Canadian.

<cleaning coffee from keyboard>

HAR! Spot on, perfect.

I actually starting typing a response to Alan's question, but then realized..... it would just be more time wasted. Not worth the effort.



... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

I actually starting typing a response to Alan's question, but then realized..... it would just be more time wasted. Not worth the effort.

Your original reply was just as worthless.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello Alexander,

You are confusing Nationality and culture. Nationality is based on
the nation in which you live.

If a person moved to another country - he changed his
nationality? ;-)

The USA does not recognize dual citizenship (except for those
from Vatican City and Israel).

Edward Snowden moved to Russia. And was granted full Russian
citizen by Vladimir Putin. Edward Snowden claims he has not, and
will not, relinquish his US citizenship. So what nationality is
Edward Snowden?

Only if he declares that new country to be his permanent residence
and loyalty. If an American moves to England for a job for a few
years, they do not become British but remain as American. But if
they move to England and declare that to be their new loyalty, then
they become British.

Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?

Scots are rulers of Scotland. Welsh are the real rulers of Wales,
as even Charles III knows from having to recite his oath in Welsh
in order to become king.

If a Jew moves to Finland he becomes a Finn?

You have again confused nationality and culture. Being a Jew is not
a nationality. The best answer to your question is yes, they become
a Finn but they are also still a Jew.

Jew is not nationality! A new word in horsed aviation, as we put it in Russia.

The Wandering Jew can be whatever nationality he/she wants ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Say it loud! Say it clear! / Refugees are welcome here!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Ward,

Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?

The Scotts and the Welsh in the European Union felt that they should be given a greater voice in European decision-making. That is why the European
Committee of the Regions was established under the Maastricht Treaty, and Member States were allowed to be represented in the Council of the EU by ministers from their regional governments.

Scots were the reason why Roman soldiers were never able to occupy
Scotland. Hence the need to build Hadrian's Wall, which still stands
today.

Scotland and Wales in recent years have not started separatist wars nor have
they shot down innocent civilian airliners.

Scotland will go its own way when Charles III abdicates.
So will Wales, as the real Prince of Wales claims his rightful
title as King.

For Life,
Lee

--
They say `Yes, Trump'! / We say `No, Trump!'

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

On 09-27-22 09:20, Alexander Koryagin <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Ukraine National Ant <=-

Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?

Their nationality is British, their culture is Scotish and Welsh.

If a Jew moves to Finland he becomes a Finn?

You have again confused nationality and culture. Being a Jew is not
a nationality. The best answer to your question is yes, they become
a Finn but they are also still a Jew.

Jew is not nationality!

DUH -- that is what I said.

A new word in horsed aviation, as we put it in Russia.

That makes no sense to me. Try again.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:26:50, 28 Sep 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hi Alan Ianson!
I read your message on 28-Sep-2022

ak>> What the difference between the storm of the Capitol and Kiev
ak>> events in 2014?

AI> In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they
AI> wanted/needed to do.

What what did Americans? �-)

AI> It was not the people speaking at the capitol on Jan 6, 2021, it
AI> was a group of MAGA trumpists supported by right wing groups like
AI> the proud boys trying to overturn the results of the election. They
AI> were acting against the people.
AI> Big difference.

So it was an extremest "group" in Kiev in 2014. The difference was that Yanukovich allowed them to do havoc hoping to get peace by negotiations.

Bye Alan!
Alexander
fidonews 2022

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi Ward Dossche!
I read your message on 28-Sep-2022

WD> Scotland and Wales in recent years have not started separatist wars
WD> nor have they shot down innocent civilian airliners.

You pretend not to see obvious things -- the war in Ukraine had been
started when Ukraininan troops moved to eastern, Russian speaking part
of Ukraine. No peaceful solution had been taken, because those who
captured power in Kiev had only one way of acting - violence. As for the plane, Ukraine had much more gains from it. Rebels had no reason to shot
down the plane which flew to the Russian border.

Bye Ward!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi Lee Lofaso!
I read your message on 28-Sep-2022

AK>>>> If a person moved to another country - he changed his
AK>>>> nationality? ;-)

LL> The USA does not recognize dual citizenship (except for those from
LL> Vatican City and Israel).

LL> Edward Snowden moved to Russia. And was granted full Russian
LL> citizen by Vladimir Putin. Edward Snowden claims he has not, and
LL> will not, relinquish his US citizenship. So what nationality is
LL> Edward Snowden?

I strogly believe that a person should define his nationality himself.
Paper or other documents mean little. And vice versa, if a person
doesn't recognize that he is, for instance, a Russian -- it means he is
not a Russian.

Bye Lee!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they
wanted/needed to do.

What what did Americans? �-)

Those at the capital that day were extremists led the by Donald Trump.

It was not the people speaking at the capitol on Jan 6, 2021, it
was a group of MAGA trumpists supported by right wing groups like
the proud boys trying to overturn the results of the election. They
were acting against the people.
Big difference.

So it was an extremest "group" in Kiev in 2014. The difference was that Yanukovich allowed them to do havoc hoping to get peace by negotiations.

No, it was not an extremist group in Kyiv. It was the people. Yanukovich knew his position was not popular with the people but he went forward with it anyway and look where it got him.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi Dale Shipp!
I read your message on 28-Sep-2022

AK>> Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?
DS> Their nationality is British, their culture is Scotish and Welsh.

British nationality IMHO is artificial, as was "Soviet people". And in
the world too, a person from London is rather an Englishman from England
than a Briton.

Bye Dale!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Who are Scotts and the the Welsh in the UK?

Scots are rulers of Scotland. Welsh are the real rulers of Wales,
as even Charles III knows from having to recite his oath in Welsh
in order to become king.

Charles recited it in Welsh because he speaks the language fluent, he did so because he could, not because he "had to". He was, up until that point, the Prince of Wales.

Lilybet never spoke Welsh, never recited the oath in Welsh ... she even never went to school.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Scots were the reason why Roman soldiers were never able to occupy Scotland. Hence the need to build Hadrian's Wall, which still stands
today.

That is a misconception, just as the Chinese wall is.

Only portions remain with large gaps in between and it doesn't exactly "stand" ... here and there section remain in the hills ... A lot of it was recycled in construction. The average height originally being just 12 feet, 4 meters.

Hadrian's wall was not an impregnable fortification. the Scotts just walked past it as they saw fit. It served as toll gates and military was only useful to slow down an attacking force .... As the Scotts were a tribal people without unified structure in those days, they never could assemble a real army.

The same with the Chinese wall which is not one continuous big construction but only has sections where it was expected that an attacking force could move.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Alexander,

As for the
plane, Ukraine had much more gains from it. Rebels had no reason to shot down the plane which flew to the Russian border.

The shrapnel taken from the bodies of the cockpit crew removes all doubt of "what" it is that brought the plane down ... and Ukraine did not possess that weapon.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

What the difference between the storm of the Capitol and Kiev
events in 2014?

In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they
wanted/needed to do.

What what did Americans? �-)

I think you need to understand the American electoral system to fully understand the intended meaning of the events on Jan.6th 2021 in Washington DC... and I call upon my American friends here to correct me where I'm wrong.

The American electoral system is timed by law ...

An election for president of the United States happens every four years on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. That is to say, that day the electoral college is elected.

That electoral college then votes. Since the mid-20th century, Congress has met in a Joint Session every four years on January 6 at 1:00 p.m. to tally votes in the Electoral College. The sitting Vice President presides over the meeting and opens the votes from each state in alphabetical order.

Odd occasions sometimes happen on that January 6th as in 2001 Al Gore, who was a presidential candidate, announced the election of his opponent.

Back to 2021 ... there was a carefully planned strategy by groups of citizens (the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, ...) to converge on Washington on January 6th. I have Republican friends in Montana and in group they booked airplane trips to Washington DC. They sent around videos and photos while in flight Jan.5th and I think no-one realised this was going to be just more than some banner waving and shouting of slogans.

Steve Bannon had previously said on January 5th that "all hell is going to break loose tomorrow". It did.

At the time of the storming of the Capitol, Trump was holding a speech at the Elipse, some 2.5km away and ordered his driver to take him to the Cqpitol. The driver refused explaining he had no authority upon which Trump attacked the driver.

The intention clearly was to arrive by the Capitol, by 1pm, when the mob of thousands were storming it. The Capitol police were already overwhelmed and now suddenly would have to protect the President. Trump could climb the stairs, address the crowd, most likely intending to enter the House of Representatives' chambers or the Senate and declare himself to be the winner of the presidential election ... it was intended to be no less than a violent overthrow of a democratic process and planned at the White House evidence suggests Dec.18th...

It did not work because of 2 people:

1. A very courageous driver of the Presidential limousine
2. Vice-president Pence who refused to cooperate ... Trump had said he should be hanged and the mob that stormed the Capitol actually planned that.

The rest is history.

Now, please, in as much detail, please explain to me what happened in 2014 and how this in any way compares to January 6th 2021...

Have a nice day trying.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hi Ward Dossche!
I read your message on 28-Sep-2022

ak>> As for the plane, Ukraine had much more gains from it. Rebels had
ak>> no reason to shot down the plane which flew to the Russian border.

WD> The shrapnel taken from the bodies of the cockpit crew removes all
WD> doubt of "what" it is that brought the plane down... and Ukraine
WD> did not possess that weapon.

In reality, Ukraine has had the same anti-aircraft BUK missles as Russia
has (made in the USSR, BTW). And there are many facts that Ukrainian
BUKs were in Donbass at that time -- because Ukrainians publicly claimed
that Russian planes violated their airspace.

Bye Ward!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Alexander,

The shrapnel taken from the bodies of the cockpit crew removes all ak>WD> doubt of "what" it is that brought the plane down... and Ukraine
did not possess that weapon.

In reality, Ukraine has had the same anti-aircraft BUK missles as Russia has (made in the USSR, BTW). And there are many facts that Ukrainian
BUKs were in Donbass at that time -- because Ukrainians publicly claimed that Russian planes violated their airspace.

Bollocks.

The downing of MH17 has been scientifically attributed to a Russian BUK operated from within the Russian controlled space of the Donbas, incl. radar tracking of the missile, satellite photos, intercepted radio-communications, wreckage fragments, autopsies, ...

Russia's denial is as sickening as the whole Ukrainian events since Feb of this year...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hi Ward Dossche!
I read your message on 29-Sep-2022

WD>>> The shrapnel taken from the bodies of the cockpit crew removes
WD>>> all doubt of "what" it is that brought the plane down... and
WD>>> Ukraine did not possess that weapon.
ak>> In reality, Ukraine has had the same anti-aircraft BUK missles as
ak>> Russia has (made in the USSR, BTW). And there are many facts that
ak>> Ukrainian BUKs were in Donbass at that time -- because Ukrainians
ak>> publicly claimed that Russian planes violated their airspace.

WD> Bollocks.

WD> The downing of MH17 has been scientifically attributed to a Russian
WD> BUK operated from within the Russian controlled space of the
WD> Donbas, incl. radar tracking of the missile, satellite photos,
WD> intercepted radio-communications, wreckage fragments, autopsies,...

Whose radars did track that missile? It looks like a fairy tale.
Ukrainian side didn't have such recordings, Russia provided its own
radar data which was ignored by the court. Whose radars do constanly
observe Russia? Aliens? Satellite photos were not presented in court.
As for the radio-communications they belonged to those people who could
not have a reliable information. They heard that some plane was downed
and very gladly boasted to each other that another fucking Ukrainian
military plane had been downed.

Bye Ward!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi Ward Dossche!
I read your message on 29-Sep-2022

ak>>>> What the difference between the storm of the Capitol and Kiev
ak>>>> events in 2014?
AI>>> In Kyiv in 2014 the people of Ukraine spoke, they did what they
AI>>> wanted/needed to do.
ak>> What what did Americans? �-)

WD> I think you need to understand the American electoral system to
WD> fully understand the intended meaning of the events on Jan.6th 2021
WD> in Washington DC... and I call upon my American friends here to
WD> correct me where I'm wrong.

WD> The American electoral system is timed by law...

WD> An election for president of the United States happens every four
WD> years on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. That
WD> is to say, that day the electoral college is elected.

WD> That electoral college then votes. Since the mid-20th century,
WD> Congress has met in a Joint Session every four years on January 6
WD> at 1:00 p.m. to tally votes in the Electoral College. The sitting
WD> Vice President presides over the meeting and opens the votes from
WD> each state in alphabetical order.

WD> Odd occasions sometimes happen on that January 6th as in 2001 Al
WD> Gore, who was a presidential candidate, announced the election of
WD> his opponent.

WD> Back to 2021... there was a carefully planned strategy by groups of
WD> citizens (the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers,...) to converge on
WD> Washington on January 6th. I have Republican friends in Montana and
WD> in group they booked airplane trips to Washington DC. They sent
WD> around videos and photos while in flight Jan.5th and I think no-one
WD> realised this was going to be just more than some banner waving and
WD> shouting of slogans.

WD> Steve Bannon had previously said on January 5th that "all hell is
WD> going to break loose tomorrow". It did.

WD> At the time of the storming of the Capitol, Trump was holding a
WD> speech at the Elipse, some 2.5km away and ordered his driver to
WD> take him to the Cqpitol. The driver refused explaining he had no
WD> authority upon which Trump attacked the driver.

WD> The intention clearly was to arrive by the Capitol, by 1pm, when
WD> the mob of thousands were storming it. The Capitol police were
WD> already overwhelmed and now suddenly would have to protect the
WD> President. Trump could climb the stairs, address the crowd, most
WD> likely intending to enter the House of Representatives' chambers or
WD> the Senate and declare himself to be the winner of the presidential
WD> election... it was intended to be no less than a violent overthrow
WD> of a democratic process and planned at the White House evidence
WD> suggests Dec.18th...

WD> It did not work because of 2 people:
WD> 1. A very courageous driver of the Presidential limousine 2. Vice-
WD> president Pence who refused to cooperate... Trump had said he
WD> should be hanged and the mob that stormed the Capitol actually
WD> planned that.

WD> Now, please, in as much detail, please explain to me what happened
WD> in 2014 and how this in any way compares to January 6th 2021...
WD> Have a nice day trying.

What did they do? They built a military camp in Kiev center, blocked the Ukrainian parliament and allowed to get in only those people who
supported their claims to oust Yanukovuch. There was fierce fighting
with the police. In the US, in such a case, the police for sure would
have used automatic weapon to disperse the crowd. That's why the US
position was cynical form the start. The US threated Yanikovich with
sanctions if he dare to disperse the crowd by force.

In the day when a peaceful agreement (to stop violence) had been
achieved (with the western and Russia mediation) this crowd had stormed
the Ukrainian president palace and forced Yanukovich to flee. It was a classical unlawful coup, Then, those who were allowed in parliament
issued a law to oust Yanukovich as President.

You probably know that Yanukovich won elections supported in (then)
Ukrainian Crimea, southern and eastern areas -- all these areas had not accepted the coup and refused to obey the new Kiev authority. That was a
start of the present day havoc.

Bye Ward!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-
--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Alexander,

It was a classical unlawful coup,

Any coup is declared unlawful by the ones being removed from power.

Do not forget, one side's terrorists are the other side's freedom fighters.

You probably know that Yanukovich won elections supported in (then) Ukrainian Crimea, southern and eastern areas -- all these areas had not accepted the coup and refused to obey the new Kiev authority. That was a start of the present day havoc.

I know that Yanukovich won the 2010 elections ... that's 12 years ago.

If I read up on events there was a desire by Ukrainians, also the ones that voted for him, to position Ukraine closer to the EU. The shit started hitting the fan when Yanukovich turned to Moscow instead.

The Ukrainians knew very well what a regime under the wing of the Kremlin, as a vassal state like Belarus, would be and made it clear that they did not want that, not even those who voted for the man.

Yanukovich fled the country for Moscow on February 21, 2014.

One day later, on the 22nd, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post on the grounds that he "has restrained himself from performing his constitutional duties" and effectively as such resigned .

On June 18th 2015, Yanukovich was officially deprived of the title of president by the parliament.

In polls conducted since his departure from office he is regarded
as one of the worst presidents in Ukrainian history

All that is "historical fact" and widely documented and I don't understand how the minds of people in Russia could have become infested and dominated by the vile propaganda without any possibility for another opinion ...

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hi Ward Dossche!
I read your message on 30-Sep-2022

WD> If I read up on events there was a desire by Ukrainians, also the
WD> ones that voted for him, to position Ukraine closer to the EU. The
WD> shit started hitting the fan when Yanukovich turned to Moscow
WD> instead.

Yanukovich held a balanced policy, as towards West/Russia, as towards west/east in his own country. It was he, BTW, the initiator to associate Ukraine with the EU. He hadn't refused from it but postponed the
association when he decided that the agreement was unprofitable for Ukraine.
As for relations with Moscow -- Ukraine and Russia have always been
close partners. Ukrainian ultra-nationalists (mainly from western
Ukraine regions) have always hated this situation. They wanted to impose
their will and ideas on all Ukraine.

WD> The Ukrainians knew very well what a regime under the wing of the
WD> Kremlin, as a vassal state like Belarus, would be and made it clear
WD> that they did not want that, not even those who voted for the man.

You think it as you wish to think. But I repeat, that southern and
eastern Ukraine have always attracted to Russia and Russian culture. So,
don't tell on behalf all Ukrainian people -- it is totally wrong. A good Fidonet phrase "don't speak for all".

WD> Yanukovich fled the country for Moscow on February 21, 2014.

Indeed he ran saving his life. He knew that extremists would not give
him a fair treatment.

WD> One day later, on the 22nd, the Ukrainian parliament voted to
WD> remove him from his post on the grounds that he "has restrained
WD> himself from performing his constitutional duties" and effectively
WD> as such resigned.

WD> On June 18th 2015, Yanukovich was officially deprived of the title
WD> of president by the parliament.

You know perfectly well that if a totalitarian authority wants to pass a
law via the parliament -- it will success. The parliamentarians were
also filtered, many didn't want to be expelled speaking against.

WD> In polls conducted since his departure from office he is regarded
WD> as one of the worst presidents in Ukrainian history.

It could be for different reasons, but the main reason was that
Yanukovich had given up his country to bastards without any resistance.
For this very reason many Russians still hate Gorbachev. Level of
corruption was also high in Ukraine. But they could not even expect what
they are going to get instead.

WD> All that is "historical fact" and widely documented and I don't
WD> understand how the minds of people in Russia could have become
WD> infested and dominated by the vile propaganda without any
WD> possibility for another opinion...

History is written by winners. ;=)

Bye Ward!
Alexander
fidonews 2022
-=<{Linux Astra - Thunderbird 78.6.1 - akReformator_lx}>=-

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

History is written by winners. ;=)

"History is written by those who have hanged heroes" ... Robert the Bruce in the movie "Braveheart".

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello alexander!

30 Sep 22 10:32, alexander koryagin wrote to Ward Dossche:

Yanukovich fled the country for Moscow on February 21, 2014.

Indeed he ran saving his life. He knew that extremists would not give
him a fair treatment.

Ah, fair treatment is certainly something one might expect in Russia...


Regards,
Gerrit

... 12:14PM up 191 days, 17:20, 8 users, load averages: 1.19, 0.91, 0.70

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Tall orders to fulfil (2:240/12)

Hello alexander,

Red ants and black ants do not fight.

Until you start shaking the glass jar they are locked in.

Putin shakes the jar. And he shakes and shakes and shakes...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hi, Gerrit Kuehn!
I read your message from 30.09.2022 13:14

WD>>> Yanukovich fled the country for Moscow on February 21,
WD>>> 2014.
ak>> Indeed he ran saving his life. He knew that extremists
ak>> would not give him a fair treatment.
GK> Ah, fair treatment is certainly something one might expect in
GK> Russia...

Certainly Snowen was clever than poor Assange ;=)

Bye, Gerrit!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Michiel Van Der Vlist!
I read your message from 30.09.2022 14:38

MV> Red ants and black ants do not fight.
MV> Until you start shaking the glass jar they are locked in.
MV> Putin shakes the jar. And he shakes and shakes and shakes...

Ukraine had a lot ways and time to prevent the war. But unfortunately it
has been led by a clown-idiot who thinks that he is Napoleon and Russian people don't deserve any concessions.
A poor mistake, he is not worth a single farthing as a politician.
Actually it framed Ukraine under the war instead of making what he must
do - prevent the escalation politically.

Bye, Michiel!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, all!
I read your message from 03.10.2022 10:53

WD>>>> Yanukovich fled the country for Moscow on February
WD>>>> 21, 2014.
ak>>> Indeed he ran saving his life. He knew that extremists
ak>>> would not give him a fair treatment.
GK>> Ah, fair treatment is certainly something one might expect
GK>> in Russia...
ak> Certainly Snowen was clever than poor Assange ;=)

Snowden, I meant, of course. :)

Bye, all!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello alexander!

03 Oct 22 10:53, alexander koryagin wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

Certainly Snowen was clever than poor Assange ;=)

Who knows? Ever talked to one of them privately?


Regards,
Gerrit

... 11:16AM up 194 days, 16:22, 8 users, load averages: 0.35, 0.57, 0.66

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Dry thoughts for the tenant (2:240/12)

Hello Alexander,

Red ants and black ants do not fight.
Until you start shaking the glass jar they are locked in.
Putin shakes the jar. And he shakes and shakes and shakes...

Ukraine had a lot ways and time to prevent the war. But unfortunately it has
been led by a clown-idiot who thinks that he is Napoleon and Russian people
don't deserve any concessions.

Both sides are to blame. Not one side or the other, but both.
Along with others who encouraged their own favorite side to start
or continue the violence. There are no innocents in this war, or
whatever you want to call it. As Professor Chomsky explains -

https://chomsky.info/20220414/

A poor mistake, he is not worth a single farthing as a politician. Actually it framed Ukraine under the war instead of making what he must do -
prevent the escalation politically.

Again, read Professor Chomsky's remarks. Although he sides with
Ukraine in regards to which is the aggressor, the points he makes
are valid.

And then ask yourself, has anything really changed since he made
those comments?

For Life,
Lee

--
Not my president!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)