• A pigeon simile

    From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to All on Fri Apr 10 12:37:58 2020
    The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in his definition of
    conscience:

    "Woes that defy the world's religions --
    The Spirit's brooding ills --
    We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
    With pills."

    I don't understand the comparison: how does one employ pills in
    scattering a flock of pigeons? Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Apr 10 12:53:02 2020
    Anton Shepelev - All:

    Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

    In anticipation of corrections from Alexander:

    Or is it a handful of small pebbles?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Apr 10 12:54:26 2020
    I mused:

    Or is it a handful of small pebbles?

    Or shot, if the flock is airborne?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Apr 16 22:05:17 2020
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 10.04.2020 12:37

    The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in his definition
    of conscience:
    "Woes that defy the world's religions --
    The Spirit's brooding ills --
    We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
    With pills."
    I don't understand the comparison: how does one employ pills in
    scattering a flock of pigeons? Or is a handfull of small
    pebbles?

    Pills also are balls for golf, billiards. You can scare away a flock of
    pigeons with it.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.english_tutor 2020
    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
    * Origin: Dewy News (2:5075/128.130)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Apr 22 23:32:06 2020
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in
    his definition of conscience:

    "Woes that defy the world's religions --
    The Spirit's brooding ills --
    We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
    With pills."

    I don't understand the comparison: how does one
    employ pills in scattering a flock of pigeons?
    Or is a handfull of small pebbles?


    I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY OF THE DOLLS,
    where women in particular were given pills which may have made them feel better
    temporarily but which did not address the underlying problem(s). Recently I've
    heard that some folks have run afoul of the laws re practising medicine without
    a licence in advertisements for vitamin & mineral supplements, claiming they'll
    prevent or even cure COVID-19. While I am not a medical professional (standard
    disclaimer) I think I know enough about nutrition to realize that while some of
    these things may help support the immune system the results can't be guaranteed ... and there is a lot of evidence suggesting that a person's spiritual beliefs
    &/or relationships with other people may help too. When I read his biography I
    see why this author may have found neither of the latter met his needs.... :-Q

    I imagine human nature hasn't changed much since then, at any rate.
    Folks often resort to pills when their state of health or whatever is in doubt,
    and at present many of us are being advised... if not required... to stay home.
    When pigeons find something to eat on a public sidewalk they tend to congregate
    there until something startles them, then they "scatter". Human beings tend to
    congregate in pubs, restaurants, and coffee shops for similar reasons. Just as
    pigeons "scatter" when there is a perceived threat, we've done much the same in
    our own way. Looking at Bierce's description, however, I read "like a flock of
    pigeons" as a parenthetical expression. IMHO the author is commenting on how &
    why people "scatter"... and what may or may not frighten pigeons is irrelevant.

    Usage note: The verb "scatter" may be transitive... as you seem to
    be interpreting it here... or intransitive. In the intransitive sense it means
    various members of a crowd go their separate ways. The verb "disperse" is used
    in a similar manner... but "scatter" implies a feeling of urgency as well. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Apr 23 14:45:14 2020
    Ardith Hinton - Anton Shepelev:

    The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in
    his definition of conscience:

    "Woes that defy the world's religions --
    The Spirit's brooding ills --
    We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
    With pills."

    I don't understand the comparison: how does one
    employ pills in scattering a flock of pigeons?
    Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

    I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY
    OF THE DOLLS, where women in particular were given pills which
    may have made them feel better temporarily but which did not
    address the underlying problem(s).

    [A learner's question:]
    I never became friendly with this consturction: may have made. Does
    it mean "it is possible that they made"? If so, is it correct to
    use the present tense to describe events in a novel introduced in
    the past tense (were given)?

    Recently I've heard that some folks have run afoul of the laws
    re practising medicine without a licence in advertisements for
    vitamin & mineral supplements, claiming they'll prevent or even
    cure COVID-19.

    Yeah, perfidious peddlers of lucrative lies.

    While I am not a medical professional (standard disclaimer) I
    think I know enough about nutrition to realize that while some of
    these things may help support the immune system the results can't
    be guaranteed .. and there is a lot of evidence suggesting that a
    person's spiritual beliefs &/or relationships with other people
    may help too.

    Scientific evidence? I wonder how and what they found out.

    When I read his biography I see why this author
    may have found neither of the latter met his needs.... :-Q

    Bierice? Because he was so bitter?

    I imagine human nature hasn't changed much since
    then, at any rate. Folks often resort to pills when their state
    of health or whatever is in doubt,

    And all the readier because taking pills takes only a negligible
    effort.

    and at present many of us are being advised... if not required...
    to stay home. When pigeons find something to eat on a public
    sidewalk they tend to congregate there until something startles
    them, then they "scatter". Human beings tend to congregate in
    pubs, restaurants, and coffee shops for similar reasons.

    Well said!

    Just as pigeons "scatter" when there is a perceived threat,
    we've done much the same in our own way. Looking at Bierce's
    description, however, I read "like a flock of pigeons" as a
    parenthetical expression.

    Well, I do understand it is a parenthetical expression, which can
    be removed without structural damage.

    IMHO the author is commenting on how & why people "scatter"...
    and what may or may not frighten pigeons is irrelevant.

    I see what you mean. We scatter like a flock of pigeons when it is
    startled. But how does your reading treat the complement "with
    pills"? If "scatter" is intransitive, there is nothing to scatter
    with pills, is it? And what are "woes" and "ills" if not the objects
    of "scatter"?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Apr 30 21:32:14 2020
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY
    OF THE DOLLS, where women in particular were given pills
    which may have made them feel better temporarily but
    which did not address the underlying problem(s).

    [A learner's question:]
    I never became friendly with this consturction: may have
    made. Does it mean "it is possible that they made"? If so,
    is it correct to use the present tense to describe events
    in a novel introduced in the past tense (were given)?


    It is possible [that] they made the users feel better temporarily...
    yes. Either way the events of the story are in the past tense, and whatever we
    write in the preamble has far more to do with our own reasoning processes. One
    of the things which may be confusing you here is an idiomatic use of "it". ;-)



    Recently I've heard that some folks have run afoul of the
    laws re practising medicine without a licence in advertisements
    for vitamin & mineral supplements, claiming they'll prevent
    or even cure COVID-19.

    Yeah, perfidious peddlers of lucrative lies.


    Nice alliteration... [chuckle].



    the results can't be guaranteed... and there is a lot of
    evidence suggesting that a person's spiritual beliefs &/or
    relationships with other people may help too.

    Scientific evidence? I wonder how and what they found out.


    While I don't know of any formal scientific studies on the topic I'd
    highly recommend Bernie Siegel's book LOVE, MEDICINE & MIRACLES. The author is
    an oncologist who noticed that some of his patients appeared to be doing better
    than expected, and made it his business to figure out why. Over the years I've
    noticed similar comments from various other front line workers as well.... :-)



    When I read his biography I see why this author may have
    found neither of the latter met his needs.... :-Q

    Bierice? Because he was so bitter?


    Apparently he had some doubts about religion... he divorced his wife ... then she & two of his children predeceased him, one by suicide. Perhaps he
    started out with a healthy skepticism which turned to bitterness later.... :-/




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Apr 30 21:40:05 2020
    Hi again, Anton! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

    Folks often resort to pills when their state of health
    or whatever is in doubt,

    And all the readier because taking pills takes only a
    negligible effort.


    Yup.... :-)



    When pigeons find something to eat on a public sidewalk
    they tend to congregate there until something startles
    them, then they "scatter". Human beings tend to congregate
    in pubs, restaurants, and coffee shops for similar reasons.

    Well said!


    Thankyou.... :-)



    We scatter like a flock of pigeons when it is startled. But
    how does your reading treat the complement "with pills"?


    More examples:

    The dog retreated with its tail between its hind legs.
    The butler absconded with the family silver.
    The train departed for Montreal with Harriet on board.
    John left without saying goodbye.


    I would describe "with [...]" as an adverbial phrase, however.... :-)



    If "scatter" is intransitive, there is nothing to scatter
    with pills, is it?
    |is there?


    That's my take on it.... :-)



    And what are "woes" and "ills" if not the objects of
    "scatter"?


    I interpret these "woes" and "ills"... which may be psychological or
    physical or both... as what often motivates human beings to use pills. The way
    Bierce alludes to the former, however, implies a bit of poetic licence.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri May 1 20:04:54 2020
    Ardith Hinton to Anton Shepelev:

    I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY
    OF THE DOLLS, where women in particular were given pills
    which may have made them feel better temporarily but
    which did not address the underlying problem(s).

    [A learner's question:]
    I never became friendly with this consturction: may have
    made. Does it mean "it is possible that they made"? If so,
    is it correct to use the present tense to describe events
    in a novel introduced in the past tense (were given)?

    It is possible [that] they made the users feel better temporarily... yes. Either way the events of the story are in
    the past tense, and whatever we write in the preamble has far
    more to do with our own reasoning processes.

    Thanks, I mean what you see (or the other way round).

    One of the things which may be confusing you here is an idiomatic
    use of "it". ;-)

    In "it is possible that..."? I have no problems with this dummy `it'
    that I wot of... If, however, you refer to the error I made in a
    tag quesion that you so kindly corrected in another post, that was
    just a mental misstep (here is another alliteration for you).

    While I don't know of any formal scientific studies on
    the topic I'd highly recommend Bernie Siegel's book LOVE,
    MEDICINE & MIRACLES. The author is an oncologist who noticed
    that some of his patients appeared to be doing better than
    expected, and made it his business to figure out why. Over the
    years I've noticed similar comments from various other front line
    workers as well.... :-)

    That is certainly interesting. Our minds are have stronger effect
    on our bodies than is usually thought, what with stigmae and the
    yogi. As a nurse told me during a regular medical inspection at the
    university, all illnesses are because of the nerves, and only one
    because of love :-)

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri May 1 20:20:12 2020
    +------------------------------------------+
    | "Woes that defy the world's religions -- |
    | The Spirit's brooding ills -- |
    | We scatter, like a flock of pigeons, |
    | With pills." |
    +------------------------------------------+

    We scatter like a flock of pigeons when it is startled. But
    how does your reading treat the complement "with pills"?

    More examples:

    The dog retreated with its tail between its hind
    legs. The butler absconded with the family silver.
    The train departed for Montreal with Harriet on
    board. John left without saying goodbye.

    I have no objections to your examples, but somehow cannot
    interpret Bierce's verse in this manner. Do we scatter like a
    flock of pigeons, with pills stuffed into our pockets by way of
    a reassuring ballast :-?

    I would describe "with [...]" as an adverbial phrase,
    however.... :-)

    In that sense, yes. It modifes the verb: retreat, abscond, depart,
    but I can't help but consider "with pills" in an instrumental sense.
    I trow I shall take a pause, or maybe ask my question otherwhere
    and compare the answers :-P

    And what are "woes" and "ills" if not the objects of
    "scatter"?

    I interpret these "woes" and "ills"... which may be
    psychological or physical or both... as what often motivates
    human beings to use pills. The way Bierce alludes to the former,
    however, implies a bit of poetic licence.... :-)

    So do I, but what is their grammatical role in the sentence. We
    learners are possessed by the grammatical devils, aren't we? Oh
    yes, we suretainly are... Grammar comes with a second language.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Denis Mosko@2:5064/54.1315 to Anton Shepelev on Sat May 2 00:10:34 2020
    Hi, Anton!

    +------------------------------------------+
    |In Russia now holidays:May 1 - peace(done)|
    |and May 2 - labor (do the shifted of the |
    |shifted) and this is in self-isolation^_^ |
    | |
    +------------------------------------------+

    skip
    In that sense, yes. It modifes the verb: retreat, abscond, depart,
    but I can't help but consider "with pills" in an instrumental sense.
    I trow I shall take a pause, or maybe ask my question otherwhere
    and compare the answers :-P
    Smile from Finland!

    С уважением - Denis
    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20120519 (Kubik 3.0)
    * Origin: ;) (2:5064/54.1315)