Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

Maybe it is better to remove "position"?:
"...but, IMHO, also there is no ground to suggest that a
stenographer is as unique in a firm as its President."

You're getting a little lost. The statement is one of fact.
In days long past there was a time of one-to-one direct
professional relationships between a senior executive (say,
president) and the organisation's (sole) stenographer.

Yes... I noticed that in the school system. The senior "secretary" took dictation when the principal wanted to send a letter, worked overtime to attend & make notes at important meetings, and typed out the results. People who do this sort of work are often quite skilled at correcting other people's errors in spelling & grammar too, including my own... [blush].

A good stenographer is worth a dozen typists.

Thankyou. My mother was a stenographer. Like the "secretary" at a small school she had various other duties as well. But she told me that when she was taking "business courses" she chose to learn bookkeeping & shorthand, both of which were elective subjects, while the majority of people apparently didn't believe they would be successful or couldn't be bothered.

In days of old, I had a 24 year long career and knew of
only two stenographers at that workplace.

As my father might have said, they're "as scarce as hens' teeth"... especially nowadays. When I mentioned to one of our daughter's young friends awhile ago that my mother was a stenographer she didn't understand what I was referring to although she herself has a university degree. Stenographers may have been done a disservice by the common tendency to lump them together with anybody who can type, use a copying machine, and answer the phone. Years ago there were jokes about the "steno pool"... more likely a "typing pool" AFAIC. And I agree that recording devices may have changed the picture as well. ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi! Ardith,

On 12/07/2019 11:46 PM, Ardith Hinton -> Paul Quinn wrote:

As my father might have said, they're "as scarce as hens' teeth"... especially nowadays. When I mentioned to one of our
daughter's young friends awhile ago that my mother was a stenographer
she didn't understand what I was referring to although she herself has a university degree.

How many would remember who a 'computor' was? I never knew any but I do recall
the next generation of data entry 'operators'.

Stenographers may have been done a disservice by the
common tendency to lump them together with anybody who can type, use a copying machine, and answer the phone. Years ago there were jokes about the "steno pool"... more likely a "typing pool" AFAIC. And I agree that recording devices may have changed the picture as well. ;-)

Yes, later and still last century, I knew a cardio specialist who used to dictate to his receptionist via a hand-held tape recorder (I think, though it may have been a dedicated device). He used some form of formal directions probably in an agreed 'verbal shorthand'.

I vaguely recall that in my earlier example, the O/C of the Typing Pool may have been #1 substitute for -the- stenographer. If not, then she would have ensured one of the girls would have had the required skills as a short-term replacement. I recall her 'training huddles' in hushed conversation with two or three other girls at times.

That was all so long ago. In the early 80s typists were being phased out as fodder to provide 'balance' in pay increases deals won by unions. Supervisors and clerical staff were expected to produce their own formal output via automation (early computers), while skilled staff were converted or 'let go'. Later, the clerks became the fodder. I got on my own terms.

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: "Oops!" --unknown (just before the Big Bang) (3:640/1384.125)

Hi, Ardith Hinton : Paul Quinn!
I read your message from 08.12.2019 00:46

A good stenographer is worth a dozen typists.

Thankyou. My mother was a stenographer. Like the "secretary" at a
small school she had various other duties as well. But she told me
that when she was taking "business courses" she chose to learn
bookkeeping & shorthand, both of which were elective subjects,
while the majority of people apparently didn't believe they would
be successful or couldn't be bothered.

So did I. I was envy looking at shorthand writing, but I knew for myself that I
would never manage to learn it. ;-)

In days of old, I had a 24 year long career and knew of only two
stenographers at that workplace.

As my father might have said, they're "as scarce as hens' teeth"... especially nowadays. When I mentioned to one of our daughter's
young friends awhile ago that my mother was a stenographer she
didn't understand what I was referring to although she herself has
a university degree.

Probably, stenographers disappeared after the dictaphone had been invented.

(is "the" correct here?)


Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2019

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* Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hi, Paul Quinn! ->Ardith Hinton
I read your message from 08.12.2019 12:22

That was all so long ago. In the early 80s typists were being
phased out as fodder to provide 'balance' in pay increases deals
won by unions. Supervisors and clerical staff were expected to
produce their own formal output via automation (early computers),
while skilled staff were converted or 'let go'. Later, the clerks
became the fodder. I got on my own terms.

Why "fodder"? Is it food for cattle?

Bye, Paul!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2019

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* Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hi! Alexander,

On 09 Dec 19 10:49, you wrote to me:

while skilled staff were converted or 'let go'. Later, the clerks
became the fodder. I got on my own terms.

I inadvertently ommitted a word. While not being important, it does affect meaning; the last sentence should read 'I got out on my own terms'. A re-organisation had left me with no foreseeable future in the new version of my
workplace, so I resigned.

Why "fodder"? Is it food for cattle?

Yes, metaphorically. Something easily found in abundance. Generally this means the actual workers, not the supervisors.

Cheers,
Paul.

... Tuesday is Soylent Green day.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

Alexander Koryagin:

Probably, stenographers disappeared after the dictaphone
had been invented.

I think they coexisted for a long time.

(is "the" correct here?)

Yes, required.

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* Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hi, Anton! Recently you said, in a message to yourself:

I wrote:

What do say to: "Stenographer is as uniqe a position in
firm as president."? What do say to: "Stenographer is
as uniqe a position in firm as president."?

Forgive me the typos:

Of course. I've noticed errors in my own writing a few minutes or a few hours after a message has scanned out, and I'm glad to see that folks like you & Alexander self-correct if I take awhile to respond... which I tend to do because you ask good questions which require a bit of thought on my part. :-)

What do *you* say to: "Stenographer is as *unique* a
position in *a* firm as president."?

Hmm. The bulk of my experience isn't WRT business but WRT clubs and professional organizations with a president, a secretary, and a treasurer. It seems to me that's the sort of thing Alexander was referring to. By custom or by law a business may be required to have only one president. OTOH... as Paul says... how many stenographers does it need & are there others available? ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

But stenographers and typists do different job.
A stenographer doesn't type his texts; they write
speeches down by hand using the special stenographic
symbols and tricks. The only problem is that nobody
can read their scripts. ;-)

Neither can I. That's why they -did- type from their
own notes!

As I mentioned to Alexander on Oct. 30th.... :-Q

I said they "take dictation", however... and I realize now that the word "take" is one of those deceptively short, simple words in English with a multiplicity of definitions. What I meant to say is that stenographers write down by hand the other person's exact words & type them from their own notes. IMHO deciphering such notes can't easily be assigned to the typing pool. :-)

Although the 'chicken scratchings' form that steno notes
may start by using a standard script, often the person
would insert their own symbology to account for in-house
terms and abbreviations, for example.

Yes, that's what a friend of ours who uses shorthand tells us. The boss may have "pet phrases" which the steno learns to abbreviate too.... ;-)

It's similar to the medical field where there is a
notation form for even the specification of patients'
medication. Ask a nurse, pharmacist or doctor (?maybe)
how their 'shorthand' looks for a typical example for:
"1 pill, twice a day".

In hospital you may also notice terms like NPO (= nothing by mouth) and PRN (= as necessary)... particularly where surgery is involved.

Until the mid-twentieth century, in this country at least, patients were expected to do as they were told & did not have prescription medications with identifying labels. Things changed when someone in the field brought to other people's attention that if the patient had accidentally or deliberately taken an overdose of little white pills the hospital staff might need to know what the pills contained. Older doctors still use "shorthand" based on Latin when they are writing prescriptions, but I think this may be more a matter of custom & convenience than the desire to preserve an aura of mystery. Since I remember a bit of Latin from my high school days I used to enjoy figuring out that e.g. "BID" represents a Latin phrase meaning "twice a day"... but now we have a young GP who uses a computer to generate prescriptions in English. He doesn't waste a lot of time typing out polysyllabic names of medications &/or instructions such as "apply to affected area(s) twice daily". I imagine that with the aid of the computer he has found other ways of working quickly. :-)

(I'm counting on Russian equivalent folk doing the same,
of course... /fingers crossed/.)

The same applies in other fields of endeavour. As an ex-waitress I often abbreviate "orange juice" as "OJ", e.g., on my shopping lists. I'm not trying to hide anything from my nearest & dearest... but I remember how if my mother needed sanitary napkins or whatever she tended to use shorthand. :-))

The separation of typing duties from stenography was only
possible with the introduction of dictatorial equipment.

I think you mean "dictation", but I get the drift.... ;-)

History lesson, finished. Thank you for listening. :)

As I get older I appreciate that my ancestors knew stuff I wish I'd paid more attention to while they were still alive. If I tend to ramble that may be at least in part because I've lost a few marbles. But I am also aware that I may be among the last few people on earth who know such things, and it seems people who haven't already heard them often enjoy my stories... [grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi! Ardith,

On 21 Dec 19 15:40, you wrote to me:

As I get older I appreciate that my ancestors knew stuff I
wish I'd paid more attention to while they were still alive. If I
tend to ramble that may be at least in part because I've lost a few marbles. But I am also aware that I may be among the last few people
on earth who know such things, and it seems people who haven't already heard them often enjoy my stories... [grin].

In my working career I experienced many folk dying (don't worry, it was 'old age' in many cases). Now, in my older years, I often wonder who else would remember them. Then, I congratulate myself for at least I can still remember them.

These days I sometimes 'come to' from having carried on a lecture to my house mates: one Aussie Lorikeet (who hates me) and one South American Sun Conure. It pays in one's latter years to enjoy a captive audience, and, also to still have the ability to recover consciousness. ;)

Cheers,
Paul.

... Do not open tagline. No user-serviceable parts inside.
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* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

Hi, Ardith Hinton! ->Paul Quinn
I read your message from 21.12.2019 16:40

now we have a young GP who uses a computer to generate
prescriptions in English. He doesn't waste a lot of time typing out polysyllabic names of medications &/or instructions such as "apply
to affected area(s) twice daily". I imagine that with the aid of
the computer he has found other ways of working quickly.

The more we live the cooler it becomes. I even believe that now the computer itself can type the speech which you say to the microphone.

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2019

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* Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

now we have a young GP who uses a computer to generate
prescriptions in English. He doesn't waste a lot of time
typing out polysyllabic names of medications &/or
instructions such as "apply to affected area(s) twice
daily". I imagine that with the aid of the computer he
has found other ways of working quickly.

The more we live the cooler it becomes. I even believe
that now the computer itself can type the speech which
you say to the microphone.

Yes, our doctor uses a microphone to dictate notes he wants added to the patient's file... or "chart", as they say in the MedBiz. The words appear in print on his computer monitor & he types corrections as needed. As yet the software is no match for a good stenographer in terms of accuracy. Like a lot of other software I've seen it's no match for a good English teacher either... but I understand he likes it because it gives him almost instant results. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)